|
MR. JOHN SHATTUCK,
Speaker
Good afternoon. I'm
John Shattuck, CEO of the John F. Kennedy Library Foundation, and together
with Deborah Leff, who is here in the front row, the Director of the Library
Museum, I want to welcome everyone on this Mother's Day to a very special
Kennedy Library forum honoring one of the world's great human rights leaders
and advocates of the rights of women, Shirin Ebadi.
Before introducing our
guest of honor, let me just thank those who make the Kennedy Library forums
possible, including Bank of America, Boston Capital, The Lowell Institute,
Corcoran Jennison, and our media sponsors The Boston Globe,
Boston.com, and 90.9 WBUR, which broadcasts all of these forums on Sunday
evenings at 8:00.
On December 10, 1948,
in one of the very first actions of the United Nations, the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights was adopted. This remarkable document was drafted
under the leadership of Eleanor Roosevelt and it reflected the collective
hopes of people everywhere that an era of tolerance and freedom might emerge
from the shadow of the worst war and oppression the world had ever seen.
Fifty-five years later, on December 10, 2003, the anniversary of the
Universal Declaration, an event took place in Oslo, Norway,
that rekindled the hope for human rights in an era of renewed global conflict
and intolerance. That event was the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to
Shirin Ebadi. When she delivered her Nobel lecture the new laureate had a
powerful and courageous message. Here's part of what she said.
"I am an Iranian,
a descendant of Cyrus the Great, the very emperor who proclaimed at the
pinnacle of power 2,500 years ago that he would not reign over the people if
they did not wish it. And he promised not to force any person to change his
religion and faith and guaranteed freedom for all."
Our speaker this
evening also had a powerful message in her Nobel speech about the human
rights of women throughout the world. And here are a few of her words on that
subject.
"My selection will
be an inspiration to the masses of women who are striving to realize their
rights. Women constitute half the population of every country. To disregard
women and bar them from active participation in political, social, economic,
and cultural life is to deprive the world and the entire population of every
society of half its capability."
And at the end of her
speech, she pointed the way toward a better world and referred back to the
Universal Declaration.
"If the 21st
century wishes to free itself from the cycle of violence, acts of terror and
war, avoid repetition of the experience of the 20th century, there
is no other way except by understanding and putting into practice every human
right for all humankind irrespective of gender, faith, nationality, or social
status." And she closed by saying, "Let us anticipate that
day."
These are extraordinary
words and all the more so because of who is speaking and where she comes
from. And you will no doubt hear much more this afternoon.
Shirin Ebadi is a human
rights lawyer and the first woman in Iran to have served as a judge.
From 1975 to 1979 she was President of one of the principal branches of the
Tehran City Court. Following the Islamic revolution of 1979, she and other
women judges were dismissed from their positions. She was barred for the next
12 years from the practice of law, and so she turned to writing and
fashioning arguments for applying international human rights law within the
framework of the Iranian Constitution.
Finally, after years of
pressing for reinstatement as a lawyer, she was given her license back in
1992 and plunged immediately into representing Iranian journalists, students,
and others seeking to exercise internationally recognized human rights. She
has chosen to remain above politics, always arguing that human rights are
universal and should not depend on who controls parliament or the security
forces. In the face of overwhelming obstacles, she has succeeded in creating
the first officially recognized independent, non-governmental human rights
organization in Iran,
The Society for the Protection of the Rights of the Child. She also helped
found The Center for the Defense of Human Rights, the only Iranian
organization that provides legal assistance to the families of imprisoned
journalists and student activists and other human rights victims in Iran.
She has repeatedly been
thrown into detention and threatened because of her human rights advocacy, and through it all she has remained a beacon of
hope to people in her own country and now throughout the world. She is famous
for telling young Iranian activists that they should "have confidence,
have courage and know that if we work hard, our struggle will be
victorious." She is an inspiration to the world, and we are honored to
have her here onstage at the Kennedy Library.
We are also very
fortunate to have as our moderator this afternoon a distinguished human
rights advocate and teacher, Jacqueline Bhabha, the Executive Director of
Harvard's Committee on Human Rights Studies. Jackie is a frequent speaker at
the Kennedy Library on human rights and brings great experience in the field.
Before coming to Harvard she directed the Human Rights Program at the University of Chicago,
served earlier as a practicing lawyer in London,
frequently appearing before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. She is a
specialist on issues of women's rights, children's rights, and the rights of
refugees and is published widely in these and many other areas of human
rights law.
So, please join me in
welcoming to the stage of the Kennedy Library Shirin Ebadi and Jacqueline
Bhabha.
MS. JACQUELINE BHABHA,
Moderator
John, thank you very
much for those very warm words and thank you also to Debby and you for this
opportunity to have a conversation with Shirin Ebadi, somebody who, like any
other person interested in human rights, I admire enormously. It's a really
great privilege and an honor to talk with you this afternoon.
I wanted to start off
by asking you a personal question. What first prompted you to get involved in
human rights? Was there one particular incident that you can remember or was
it a gradual process of decision-making in the course of your life?
MS. SHIRIN EBADI,
Speaker (with an interpreter)
I guess everybody is
born with certain characteristics. Since my childhood I was attracted to
something, and later on I realized it was justice. Whenever I saw kids
fighting on a street, without knowing what their story was, I would involve
myself and take sides with the weak side, just to defend the weak side
against the more powerful side. I remember that I got beaten up several times
also.
The same feeling
directed me toward law school. Especially since my father, my uncle, and
several of my relatives were attorneys and lawyers and, therefore, I was
completely familiar with these questions about laws and rules. The same
attraction for law and justice made me go to the court after graduating from Tehran University and try to become a judge
so that I can help people.
After the revolution, I
was told that because I am a woman I am barred from practicing law and,
therefore, I left the courts. So I got into the Iran Bar Association, got my
license for practicing law, and started my own private practice. And that was
when I started focusing my activities and my work on defending human rights.
In addition to my own work on behalf of human rights, I started several NGOs
that were already mentioned. At any time some people make money in this work
and some people should defend the human rights.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could
ask you a little bit more about the role of the law in a society like Iran.
Clearly, there is a constitution, there are courts, there
are judges. I gather that now there are women judges. So, in a sense, the fight
that you initiated has been successful to some extent. But what is the role
of law in a society like Iran?
Are you relying on loopholes in the law? Are you relying on progressive
members of the judiciary? Or would you say that the rule of law does exist in
such a way that there is scope for a strong and powerful advocate like
yourself?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, we have
big problems regarding violation of human rights in Iran. Why do
you think human rights in Iran
have become sort of legalized, in the sense that we actually have laws that
violate human rights? Iran
is a signatory to the International Convention on Human Rights, both
political and commercial and (inaudible) has agreed to actually carry out
these provisions. But our laws are actually against Iran's
international obligation regarding these conventions and these provisions.
For example, we have gender-based bias. I will give you a few examples of
anti-women law in Iran.
A man can have up to
four wives. Without any excuse, he can divorce his wife. But for a woman it
would be very difficult and sometimes impossible to divorce her husband. The
testimony of two women is as good as the testimony of one man in the court.
The life of a woman is valued half as much as the life of a man in the sense
that if a man and woman get into an accident, the same accident, and they are
injured, the compensation that will be paid to the woman will be half the
compensation that will be paid to a man. And we have all these bias laws
while at the same time 63% of Iranian college students are women and, in
fact, we have more educated women than men.
MS. BHABHA: Could I just ask you,
given what you say, what can someone like you do within the court system? If
that's what the law says, what can you do? If you're representing a woman who
got 50% of the payment that her husband or her brother got, is there anything
you as a lawyer can do about that?
MS. EBADI: The most important
thing that we need to do is inform people both inside and outside the country
about these bias laws that we have inside Iran. It is only then that we can
attract the public opinion both in Iran and international opinion
outside. For example, 15 years ago we carried out research by which we
realized that 70% of women, even those who are educated, did not know that if
they go to court their testimony is half as good as the testimony of a man.
In other words, the testimony of two women is as good as the testimony of a
single man. Therefore, teaching and educating people both inside and outside Iran is the
most important task that any defender of human rights and any lawyer has.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could
ask you, you've mentioned some of the human rights issues affecting women.
What would you say today were the key human rights problems in your country
which affect the population as a whole? Would you be able to mention, for
example, freedom of expression or the use of torture in prison or other
economic and social issues which you think are particularly troublesome? What
would you identify as the main human rights concerns that you have and that
the international community should have concerning Iran?
MS. EBADI: The most difficult
problems that Iranian women are confronting and the most urgent action that
we must take in Iran
is to change the laws regarding people and family. We have many anti-women
laws in Iran,
like under normal conditions a woman may not get involved in some of the laws
pertaining to her situation. For example, while the testimony of two women is
as good as the testimony of a man, we may not have a lot of cases in which a
woman actually does have to go to court and testify and, therefore, realize
the situation. But we shouldn't forget that usually most women get married
and, therefore, become familiar with these anti-women laws in their family
life. Therefore, what we need to change and to start with is the law that
pertains to family life.
MS. BHABHA: Is domestic violence a
big issue in Iran?
MS. EBADI: We have a lot of
domestic violence in Iran,
but what is unfortunate is that a lot of times the laws actually condone such
violence. I give you an example. If a man finds his wife and another man in
bed, he can kill both of them without fearing any punishment. Aside from the
fact that this law allows the man to be both the prosecutor and judge and
decide what he should do, this law can be abused my many men. He can kill his
wife and claim that he actually found her in bed with another man.
MS. BHABHA: In response to this
sort of outrageous bias and discrimination, has there been a development of
women's groups and women's organizations in Iran?
MS. EBADI: Since this bias and
discriminatory law against women is not actually compatible with Iran's long civilization and since the number
of educated Iranian women has been increasing at a rapid pace, the feminist
movement in Iran
is really strong. And we have many Iranian women who are after restoring
their rights.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could
ask you about two other sections of the Iranian population. We've talked a
little bit about women. I want to talk to you about young people and youth.
To what extent is there possibility for young people to question the norms of
the society, like young people do everywhere to raise issues, to explore
different ways of being? Is that at all allowed? Or is it a situation in
which young people find themselves detained, find
themselves prevented from articulating their views?
MS. EBADI: Young Iranian people,
women, and informed people have all questioned such law. And it is exactly
for this reason that we have a lot of tension within the Iranian society. In
other words, we have a clash between the tradition and modernism.
MS. BHABHA: Are there political …
I mean I know there are political dissidents in Iran. How many people would you
say are actually detained because of their political opinions? Would you have
a figure?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, nobody
knows the exact number of political prisoners in Iran. And the reason for it is
that the government is not willing to actually announce the names of these
political prisoners. And, in fact, some Iranian government officials claim
that we don't even have any political prisoners. We only know about the
political prisoners and their families that have actually talked to us and
worked with us. But we believe that the actual number of political prisoners
is much larger than what we know about, because the families of many of these
political prisoners don't even dare to talk about their predicament. And I
should declare here that some of the best Iranian young, some of the most
innocent, well-intentioned Iranians are in prison.
And I wish them well and I hope they will be released as soon as possible.
MS. BHABHA: What I wanted to say
is that we know from other societies, Argentina in particular, that families
of people who have disappeared or who are tortured play an enormously
important role in embarrassing, publicizing what repressive regimes do. Is
there any public organization by families in Iran today like there was in
Argentina with the mothers and the grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, the
famous group of women who every Thursday would wear white scarves and
demonstrate in the main square? Is there any movement like this in Iran or do
you see something like this developing?
MS. EBADI: We do have such a
movement in Iran,
but unfortunately the government does not allow an (inaudible) to be
established to represent this movement. For example, (inaudible) movement or
communist political dissidents who were executed in 1988 and were buried in a
cemetery outside Tehran, outside the main cemetery of Tehran. Twice a year the families of
these executed brave people gather at their graves to commemorate their
memories. Unfortunately, they are usually attacked by vigilantes and groups
connected to the military, and there is usually confrontation between the
families of the executed and the paramilitary and vigilante groups. Yes,
families have tried very hard to convince the government to build a memorial
for the executed or at least convert it to a general cemetery so that everybody
can visit it.
MS. BHABHA: The last question I
wanted to ask you about Iran
today concerns another issue that is very much a part of international human
rights concerns, and that is the problem of HIV AIDS. Is this a problem in Iran? And, if
so, what is the Iranian government doing about it?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, the
number of people who have contracted AIDS or are HIV positive is increasing
rapidly in Iran.
MS. BHABHA: Why is that?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, the
government does not have any program for prevention and health care for this
problem. Unfortunately, the reason for this is that if the government starts
such a program, then it has officially admitted that there is prostitution in
Iran
which the government does not admit to.
MS. BHABHA: I suppose there are
three groups traditionally that are particularly vulnerable in this context.
One is sex workers or prostitutes. The second is drug users. And the third is
the homosexual community. I presume all of these three groups are very
marginal and vulnerable. So this must be a very serious problem.
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, the
number of drug users in Iran
is increasing rapidly. And the age at which they start to use drugs is also
becoming very low. Iran is
in between Afghanistan and
Europe where most of the drug is trafficked from Afghanistan
to Europe. And that has increased greatly
the amount of drugs that are available in Iran and its use.
MS. BHABHA: I think John Shattuck
in introducing you mentioned that you yourself have spent time in prison and,
of course, prison is another place where HIV AIDS is a very worrying and
dangerous phenomenon. Did you have any experiences or did you have any
concerns about this in your own personal time in prison?
MS. EBADI: The worst fear that I
had when I was jailed was that I would contact HIV. Because it was a very bad
jail. Every (inaudible) including Iran is one of the most
contaminated and infected places. And one day the jail warden was inspecting
and checking on me and asked me whether I needed anything. I told him that I
am HIV positive. He was very surprised and asked me whether I was telling the
truth and then he started backing away. And I told him, "No, I don't
actually have it. But I want to ask you, how do you know that I actually am
not HIV positive?" So I asked him, "Why don't you just do a medical
checkup of every prisoner that comes to the prison, so that you can learn how
many HIV positive people you have in jail?" And I felt that my
suggestion made the jail warden start thinking. Unfortunately, as soon as he
left my cell he also forgot about my suggestion.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if we could
turn to another topic. I wanted to ask you about the relationship between
your commitment to human rights and to women's
rights and the fact that you are a practicing Muslim and that you work within
the Islamic faith. Unlike many Iranian human rights activists who have very
similar positions to you on some issues, you work, as I say, within the
context of Islam. So I wanted to ask you firstly how do you see the
relationship between your belief in women's rights and your religion?
MS. EBADI: The (inaudible)
government in Islamic countries, in order to justify what they do, they abuse
Islam. They don't have the courage to say, "We do what we like to do, we
don't care about people." And, therefore, they try to hide behind Islam.
And, of course, the Islam that they talk about is the Islam that they have
interpreted, and they have declared null and void any other interpretation of
Islam presented by anybody else. These governments have given their people
only two choices: you either accept democracy and human rights or you accept
Islam. And, of course, if they don't pick Islam as they present it to them,
they will be punished. We have many people in Iran who claim that Islam and
democracy are not compatible because the majority of people can err,
actually. Our response to them is that you are the ones who are making
mistakes and erring. With the right interpretation of Islam and Islamic laws,
we can be both Muslim and respect democracy and human rights.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could
just press you on this a little bit, though. Because I certainly agree, and I
think many of your critics would agree, that there is space for considerable
reform within an Islamic system. But what would you say about some of the
cardinal principles like the principle about marriage, for example, that a
man can have four wives? Or the Islamic position on inheritance, which is
completely unequal, where inheritance favors the man two to one? How do you
reconcile that with your belief in equal rights for women?
MS. EBADI: Islam, like any other
religion or ideology, can be interpreted in many different ways. For example,
some churches accept gay marriage, some churches don't, and they both claim
to be Christian. And we also know that the same thing applies to secular
ideology. For example, China
and Cuba
are both socialist, but they are governed by two
completely different systems. Therefore, the most important thing is how you
interpret a religion or ideology. Many Islamic countries have banned
(inaudible).
MS. BHABHA: Can you give us some
examples?
MS. EBADI: Morocco, for
example. Women's rights are not the same, uniformly the same, in all the
Islamic countries. In Saudi
Arabia, women cannot even drive. Countries
like Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Pakistan have had female
presidents and prime ministers. Therefore, the fundamental question is which
Islam and which interpretation. And the most important thing is a society
should be governed based on democratic principle.
MS. BHABHA: I absolutely agree
with you. But I wonder if I could just ask you, I think some people who are
in discussion with you in a collegial disagreement would say that you are
reluctant to call for a secular state, that you support the fact that your
country is a religious, the religious constitution, and that the context of
the political situation is within the framework of Islam. Is it true that you
actually are not interested or not calling for a secular state in your
country and that you think it should stay within the framework of Islam?
MS. EBADI: I believe that
governing a society or a country should be based on democratic principle.
Therefore, if the majority of that country or society wants a certain thing
that is what should happen. My personal belief is that church and state
should be separated. But the most important point that we should remember is
that separation of church and state is not anti-Islamic. And, in fact, we
have many historical examples in Islamic history. What I always say is, don't
abuse Islam.
MS. BHABHA: In the present
situation in Iran,
the Guardian Council can, in effect, censor and control all political
candidates. What do you see the possibilities for reform within the current
system?
MS. EBADI: Well, the greatest
obstacle to democracy in Iran
is the fact that the Iranian people cannot vote for anybody that they want.
(Inaudible) and the direct voting of people. And, therefore, the type of
elections that we have in Iran
is not a one-step election, rather, a two-step election. And because of that,
because the qualifications of many candidates who wanted to run for the
seventh session of the Parliament in Iran were not approved by the Guardian
Council. I didn't vote and I didn't participate in the election. And I
declare right now that if anybody wants to run in the upcoming presidential
election, he should be allowed and free to do so. We cannot disapprove his
qualifications. Otherwise, you are not going to have a free election.
MS. BHABHA: Normally, in a
democracy, direct elections and the selection of candidates are one mechanism
for ensuring that the will of the people manifests itself. But another very
important mechanism is the judicial system and the rule of law. In Iran, as I
understand it, the head of the judiciary is selected by the Supreme Leader
and it is that head of the judiciary who selects the other judges. So, in a
sense, the legal system as well is not likely to deliver the sorts of open
judgments that will facilitate the will of the people being expressed. In
that context, how can people express or challenge the current situation?
MS. EBADI: This is a very
difficult question. People have been asking the same question for the past 25
years. Iranian people over the past 25 years have experienced an eight year
war with Iraq
and because of that, they don't want any violence or bloodshed and don't want
to do anything that would lead to violence and bloodshed. And, unfortunately,
the government knows this and takes advantage of it and abuses it. People are
not happy with their lot. We have high unemployment. Poverty has expanded
greatly. We have very limited freedom of speech in Iran. We just described what type
of elections we have. Therefore, under such conditions it is natural for
people to want deep reform and fundamental changes, to want what we are
focusing on -- to find a non-violent way so that we can have democracy and
preserve the territorial integrity of Iran. This is, of course, a long
and difficult way. But we realize that for everything there is a price. And
people are paying the price for achieving democracy. And the best evidence
for it is the number of political prisoners that we have.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder, having spent
some time criticizing your country and the lack of democracy, whether we
could turn now to the role of this country and the Bush administration in
respect to Iran.
And the first question I wanted to ask you is this. You're on record as
having criticized the Bush Administration's foreign policy. To what extent do
you think that the attitude toward Iran has made it harder for
reformers in the country to develop their position?
MS. EBADI: National security is
always a good excuse to put down democratic forces. When there is a foreign
threat against a country, the government of that country can use the excuse
of national security to jail any dissident and any voice. For example, this
is what happened during the Iran-Iraq War. And, in fact, this war led to the
jailing of many people and to the limiting of the democratic process.
Therefore, if there is any country that wants to help Iranian democratic
forces, it should know that the way to do it is not by military attack.
MS. BHABHA: To what extent has
this administration been helpful to reformers within Iran?
MS. EBADI: The foreign policy of
the Bush administration has been based on threats. And I already explained to
you what happens as a consequence of such threats. I believe that we should
first negotiate our differences. And if we can't resolve our differences by
negotiation, then the place that we should go is the United Nations.
MS. BHABHA: I believe that you
yourself have had a personal experience of lack of support from the
administration in connection with your desire to publish your own views and
your own story. I gather, and having spoken to your agent who actually is
with us today, that you took on the Bush administration, as it were, in a
courageous way to open the way for freedom of expression and freedom of
publication. And I wonder if you could just explain to us what happened.
MS. EBADI: I wanted to publish my
personal, not political memoir in this country. And because I didn't want to
lie or have self-censorship, I could not publish this book in Iran.
Therefore, I decided to publish it in the United States. But I was
confronted with the law as a result of US sanctions against Iran that
would not allow me to publish this book. With the help of a law firm that
believed in freedom of speech, we filed a suit against the American
government in New York
court, federal court. And I'm happy that as a result of this lawsuit, the
Office of Foreign Asset Controls of the Treasury Department changed its
regulation for regulating publishing foreign books in the United States that affected not only Iranian
publishers, but also those in Cuba
and Sudan.
And let me here express my high respect for the brave American judges who
respected the freedom of speech and did not allow politics to get in their
way.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could
ask you a little bit about your views on the so-called war against terrorism.
You are on record as criticizing the Bush administration's decision to attack
Afghanistan.
What, in your view, is the best way to address the problem of terrorism
today?
MS. EBADI: Finding and punishing
terrorists is, of course, legitimate. Let us ask ourselves this question. For
the past 50 years, we have been capturing terrorists, putting them on trial,
and punishing them. Has the problem of terrorists gone away? The answer, of
course, is no. Terrorism has been increasing, in fact, all over the world.
Therefore, perhaps the best way of addressing the terrorism issue is to find
the root cause of terrorism and address that. The roots of terrorism are in
injustice and lack of information and uneducated people. I am very sorry for
what happened on September 11, 2001, and I have full sympathy for the
families of the victims. And (inaudible) official statistics over 3000 people
have been killed by this terrorist act. The best way to respect the memory of
victims and pay homage to them may be to build as many schools in
poverty-stricken areas of the world in the name of the victims of terrorists.
This is the way we can respect their memory and keep their memories alive.
Let me ask you this question. What has the US government done to respect the
memory of the victims? One school in Sudan,
in Guatemala,
or in other poor countries can do a lot to respect and keep alive the memory
of the loved ones that you've lost.
MS. BHABHA: I have asked you about
Afghanistan.
I wonder if I could now ask you briefly about Iraq. Some people have argued
that the American attack against Iraq has achieved two very
valuable outcomes. Firstly, the removal from power of Saddam Hussein and, secondly,
the fact that the Iraqi people have been able to hold reasonably open
elections, democratic elections, for the first time for many, many years.
What is your view about that?
MS. EBADI: I agree that the
elections that were held in Iraq
under the supervision of the United States
were a positive step toward establishing a democratic system in Iraq. But the
question is what was the price that was paid to achieve
this first step? Over a hundred thousand civilians have been killed in
Iraq.
The cultural heritage, including museums, has been looted. The industrial
base has been destroyed. And we all know about the security situation in Iraq whereby
every day several people get killed. Couldn't we find another way, a better
way, so that we wouldn't have to pay such a high price for actually being the
first step?
I have a question. Was
Saddam Hussein the only dictator that existed in the world? In my view,
Saddam Hussein ruled a country that has a lot of oil. So the difference
between him and other dictators was that he had a lot of oil but other
dictatorships around the world do not have any oil.
MS. BHABHA: I know that there are
many people in the audience who would like to ask you questions. So I would
just like to end with a final question, if I may. Today, as you know, is
Mother's Day, which is celebrated in America, and we have some
families here, including my own daughter in the audience. I wonder what you
would say to the younger generation, our daughters, for the future, and our
sons, for that matter. What advice would you give? What would you like them
to take away from this? And if I may also add something else, because I know
there are many people who are Iranian or of Iranian descent in the audience.
What is the role that the exile community can play? So many young people in
exile?
MS. EBADI: Let me congratulate
Mother's Day to all mothers. I am grateful to you for coming here on the day
that you should spend with your family and your mother. So if I am to give a
few words of advice to you, I would tell you the same thing that I always
tell my daughter. I would tell people, don't imitate anybody, just be yourself. Develop your own way of going about your life.
Don't be afraid of making mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. What we need to
do is to learn from our mistakes.
MS. BHABHA: We now have some time
for questions. And I should say that a question is something that ends with a
question mark, so please don't give long speeches. As you can see, there are
two microphones, so what I would invite you to do, those of you who would
like to ask Shirin Ebadi a question, is to line up in front of the
microphone. Please tell us your name and if you come from an organization,
what that organization is. And then please ask a short question. Thank you.
Sir?
AUDIENCE: My name is Sam
(inaudible) university. Let me say, first of all, that it's an honor to be
here with Ms. Ebadi. Her actions on all our behalves we should be really
grateful for. The question I have is the following. You have mentioned that
there is essentially dictatorship in Iran. We know of a dictatorship
that was in Iraq.
We could look in many other places in the world where there are
dictatorships. You've told us that it would be valuable to educate people, to
try to strive for freedom and on and on. All of those things seem to be quite
compelling. My question is the following. It seems like the road to freedom,
to possibilities for all human beings, is a very long one in the way you're
imagining it. And while none of us wants to see war, the fact of the matter
is are we willing to sacrifice generations and generations of people before
fundamental change occurs? And can we be confident in the face of Iran's and
other nations now possessing nuclear knowledge that we are not running a
very, very difficult, great risk in waiting and not acting rather
aggressively to end this terrible authoritarian situation that seems to exist
there and elsewhere?
MS. BHABHA: And please take pity
on the poor interpreter and make your questions as short as possible.
MS. EBADI: Of course, time is of
the essence and nobody can deny it. And that's why I mentioned the role that
public opinion, both public opinion and the United Nations can play. At the
same time, we must realize that democracy is a culture. It is not an accident
that can happen overnight. It is not a gift that you can give to a nation on
a gold plate. It is a historical process that must develop and evolve. And
the role of intellectuals and freedom lovers is to shorten this path as much
as possible.
AUDIENCE: Good evening. My name
is Steven Goode, and I'm a US
history teacher here in Boston
at the John D. O' Bryant School of Math and Science. I have two statements
first. Number one, freedom is not free. And number two, democracy comes with
a price. When I go back to my history class tomorrow, my question to you,
what idea would you like me to pass on to my students? What idea would you
like me to pass on to my students in relationship to the United States' relationship with Iran?
MS. EBADI: I think I partially
answered this question earlier. What I do know is that military attack
against Iran will disrupt
the democratic process and movement in Iran. If the United States or any other country wants to
help the cause of democracy in Iran,
it should help NGOs and civil society organizations in Iran and
other countries. In addition, what would greatly help the Iranian people is
to pass on Iran's
news without any exaggeration, innuendo, lies or half truths. And I ask you
to tell your students the following. Establishment of democracy in Iran is our
job.
AUIDENCE: Good afternoon. My
name is Gloria Gonzales, and I work at Wellesley College,
which is a women's college here in the area. My question to you is … First of
all, I want to thank you for the remarkable role that you're taking in not
only human rights but women's rights around the world. My question to you is
what counsel would you give to women who, by living in societies who silence
their voices, find themselves in situations where they have no voice? What
advice would you give to women in those situations?
MS. EBADI: The most important
thing for women is having belief in themselves. They
should be convinced that they can decide their own fate. The confidence of
women who live in countries in which patriarchal culture is dominating has
been taken away. I believe the day a woman develops self confidence is the
day that she will be free.
AUDIENCE: I'm Peter (inaudible).
I'm an editorial contributor for Persian Mirror and an author who has
done prison time in America
last year for publishing a book. One question I would like to ask you is what
is your opinion on double standards in America
toward women and Iranians living in America?
INTERPRETER: Dr. Ebadi asks by
double standard, you mean double standards in human rights? Or in what
aspect?
AUDIENCE: Double standards in
human rights and also toward members of the Iranian community. Let me give
you an example. This past May you were invited to speak, to receive an
honorary degree from Brown
University. And you are
involved in Iranian resistance work. I, too, am involved in Iranian
resistance work, but the administration of Brown has repeatedly threatened to
arrest me for setting foot on the property of that university, despite the
pleas of several friends of mine including department heads there, including
the heads of the Middle East Studies department. I sent you a letter
informing you about that before your arrival there, but you still accepted
that degree. Now, here we have in America a university who gives
one person who is involved in Iranian dissident work an honorary degree for
the work, yet they threaten another person who is involved in dissident work
with prison time.
MS. BHABHA: So you're asking Shirin
Ebadi to comment on Brown
University's double
standards?
AUDIENCE: Oh, on double
standards in general. I'm using that as an example.
MS. EBADI: I'm very sorry that I
couldn't meet you at Brown
University. Rest
assured that if I knew you wanted to meet me or anybody else wanted to meet
me, I would have made arrangements to meet you and others. And I must tell
you that I am against all bias and discrimination of any type.
AUDIENCE: My name is Paul. I
just want to put a plug in for global exchange in California. They run about six trips a
year to Iran
and they are awesome. I went a couple of years ago. My question is, and I
know it's small potatoes with all the problems over
there, but is anybody working or speaking out against how gays and lesbians
are treated throughout the Middle East?
MS. EBADI: In Iran the
punishment for a homosexual man is death. And the punishment for a homosexual
woman is 100 lashes. And, therefore, homosexuality is banned by Iranian laws.
And I must tell you that we don't have, unfortunately, don't have any court
NGO that defends the rights of homosexuals in Iran. There are several Internet
sites that are active in this area.
AUDIENCE: My name is
(inaudible). I would consider myself an Americanized Persian. I was born in Iran, came to this country at four years old
in the late '60s, way before the revolution in Iran. My question to you is
related to the status and the changes of the Iranian government toward other
religious communities outside of Islam and, specifically, I'm interested in
perhaps any changes toward the Baha'i community. As you know, the Baha'i
faith has its birthplace in Iran.
And this is a community that has been denied educational rights, all basic rights, forget the women issue, but even working permits.
So a community that has truly been denied at every level any kind of rights.
What are the changes in the Baha'i community in Iran today?
MS. EBADI: I must tell you, as
you probably know, there is discrimination in Iran based on
religion. According to the Iranian Constitution, the official religion of Iran is
Shiite Islam. The constitution also recognizes Christianity, Judaism, and
Zoroastrianism. And, therefore, this means that other religions such as the
Baha'i faith are not recognized officially. And, of course, this creates
discrimination, including the right to get university education for Baha'is
that you mentioned. But I must also tell you that there is discrimination
between Islam and those religions that have been officially recognized by the
constitution. I give you an example. If a Christian passes away, his
inheritance, of course, should be given according to the teaching of
Christianity. But according to the law that was passed after the revolution,
even if there is one person in the family of the deceased Christian that has
converted to Islam, the entire inheritance belongs to that person and even
the children of the deceased do not get anything. And I must tell you that
discrimination is much worse than what I just told you. For example, Tehran has a population of 12 million, and for years the
Sunni Muslims have asked the government to allow them to build their own
mosque in Tehran
and haven't been successful. I hope that all this discrimination some day
will end.
AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. My
name is Elizabeth Wing. I came from China, and I'm a scientist in a
local pharmaceutical company. As you just mentioned in your speech, there are
many dictators in the world and maybe Saddam Hussein has the oil. So,
actually, my question is related to China. Right now, actually, a lot
of Chinese people, especially Chinese women, and their grand churches, the
Catholics, Christians, Tibetan women and also the spiritual movement of Falon
Gong women, they could not have their basic human rights as well as freedom
of speech and belief. But it seems like in the world, the Western society is
kind of not willing to touch this very sensitive topic because they think
China is a big market, and everybody wants to invest in China and wants to
share a piece of the big pancake. So I'm just trying to ask you, as today is
Mother's Day, many mothers are still in jail as dissidents or spiritual
movement people. As you are an international figure, what would you do to
help those people, Chinese women, and really be courageous to touch this sensitive
topic, although the Chinese communist regime won't be happy to see it?
MS. EBADI: I am familiar with
several Chinese NGOs that defend human rights and, fortunately, they are very
active also. I know that freedom of speech in China is very limited. One of the
biggest things Chinese people who live outside the United
States can do is inform people about the problems that
they have in China.
And I should also inform you that the largest … [cut in tape].
AUDIENCE: I want, first of all,
as a peace activist to thank you for coming here and doing such a superb job
for public education. So I'd like to thank you. For the gentleman who is
translating, I'm sorry I have to refer you to as the gentleman because I
think your name wasn't announced.
INTERPRETER: My name is Mohammad
Sahimi.
AUDIENCE: I'd like to refer to
the section with responding about the election in Iraq. I was wondering, when
George Bush is advocating democracy if there was someone who was against the
occupation. What is his or her name on this slate for the election? I was
wondering about that. And would have won election and it did not happen. So I
really wouldn't call it election in Iraq. The second thing, as a
human rights activist, I'd like you to (inaudible). I think some are from
television. I'd like you to address the issue of human rights of the
prisoners in Guantanamo
and in Abu Ghraib, the torture centers. We know about Abu Ghraib because
there were cameras. I'm sure the situation is worse in Guantanamo. I would like to hear your comments.
Thank you.
MS. BHABHA: While the interpreter
is translating, may I just say that, unfortunately, we are running out of
time. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask the people -- first of all,
I'm going to ask nobody else to line up. Secondly, I'm going to ask the
people at the mike to just present their questions, and I'm going to ask
Shirin Ebadi to then respond to all four questions first and then to your
questions, just so that we don't delay people from leaving too long.
MS. EBADI: The treatment
that the prisoners have received in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons have been so
inhuman that every NGO that is active in defense of human rights has to
protest it. Even many American NGOs have protested, and I am aware that at
least one of them has gone to court. When I delivered my acceptance speech
for the Nobel Prize, I mentioned the condition of the prisoners in Guantanamo, and I
criticized their treatment. But we should not just be dismissive of the fact
that the Iraqi people actually participated in the free election that was
held under the supervision of the United Nations.
AUDIENCE: It was under
occupation.
MS. EBADI: Yes, Iraq was
occupied, but the United Nations monitors reported that nobody used guns to
force them to go to vote in a certain way. And at the same time, if you
remember, I mentioned that although the first step was very positive, it has
been achieved at a very high price.
MS. BHABHA: Thank you. Okay, so,
if you would just ... I'm going to ask the four people who are standing there
to ask their questions one after the other and then ask her to reply, in the
interest of time. Please go ahead.
AUDIENCE: Hi. My name is
(inaudible). I'm originally from Iran. I'm a doctoral student at
the Harvard School of Public Health, and in the interest of time, I'm not
going to go into detail exactly what I want. I was hoping to get a chance to
hand deliver this letter to you. We heard your talk at the Harvard Kennedy
School a while back, my
friends and I, and it was so inspirational that we started a movement among
us and we have established this women's studies group under the umbrella of
Iranian studies group. And we have a project with HBO right now, and we
wanted to know if you would be interested in actually learning about our
project, which involves adding subtitles, Persian subtitles to a movie that
tells a true story of the suffragists who fought for American women's right
to vote. So we would love to get the opportunity to introduce you to this
project and see if you are interested in helping us.
AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. I'm
Gary Ludwig, and I wondered if you could shed any light on if there is any
hope for progression and enlightenment toward democracy and human rights from
within Islam by the clerics and by the theologians.
AUDIENCE: My name is
(inaudible), and I'm a graduate student at MIT. My question concerns the fact
that the Islamic Republic is only the latest Iranian regime to oppress and
cheat its people. And what are the underlying aspects of Iranian society or
culture that allows for this weak society to be oppressed by its government
and what changes are taking place at the grass roots level to address this
problem?
AUDIENCE: Hello. My name is Nyla
(inaudible), and I'm a doctor. My question is that we are all aware that Iran continues
to find itself in the position of having to answer for allegedly pursuing
nuclear options. My question to Ms. Ebadi is what is your position on nuclear
non-proliferation for some but not for other countries of the world?
MS. BHABHA: We'll take the answer
to these four questions, I think, in the interest of mental clarity. Sorry,
we're working you very hard.
MS. EBADI: I would be happy to
learn about and participate in any human rights project, especially those
that are initiated by Iranians considering the limited time that I have.
The next question is
whether the clerics in Iran
or other Islamic countries can actually initiate steps toward democracy. I
believe they can. When undemocratic Islamic governments hide behind Islam and
justify whatever they do in the name of Islam, progressive clerics who are
opposed to what these governments do and announce their position would give
people the courage to fight such a system. For example, I already mentioned
that the life of a woman is valued half as much as the life of a man and
whenever there would be any discussion regarding the issue, the government
would say you are opposing Islam. But then some high-ranking ayatollah, such
as Ayatollah Sanei, declared that this is un-Islamic, and man and woman
should be equal in this regard. That gave people the courage to speak up.
So let me talk about
why Iran
has been ruled by dictators one after the other, and what we can do to change
this culture. Democratic people make democracy. And people who only worship
heroes and look for a hero to take care of their problem convert any democrat
to a dictator. We should remember that Reza Shah, the father of the Shah,
wanted to abolish monarchy and establish a republican system in Iran. But he
didn't do it and became a king and, therefore, he became a dictator. Reza
Shah's son, Mohammad Reza Shah, was more or less a democratic monarch at the
beginning of his reign, but after the coup of 1953 Iranian people praised so
much, praised him so much that gradually he became a dictator.
As long as we the
people feel that there is a hero to solve our problems and address our
issues, we are going to be in the same situation dealing with dictators. We
should learn that we should be the hero of our own fate.
I believe, as you
probably do, that humankind and no nation on earth needs nuclear weapons,
including the United States,
Israel, and Iran.
MS. BHABHA: Okay, we have our last
three questions, please, and then we will conclude.
AUDIENCE: (inaudible).
INTERPRETER: I will repeat the
question later on when Dr. Ebadi answers.
AUDIENCE: I am (inaudible). I am
one of the teenagers in here right now. I don't know how many teenagers. I
moved here two years ago. I was one of those teenagers who (inaudible) and
tried to react about what they had done about our freedom. What I got was a
(inaudible). I'm not playing soccer anymore because of my knee. I wasn't
afraid what happened to me, so I just kept going, working on what I was
doing. I was just going to ask, a lot of kids like me who are afraid in Iran, what
they are doing and not doing anything because they are scared about their
lives and what is happening to them. I was wondering what we can do to wake
up those students, because I know everything happens in Iran is mostly
teenagers and the college students. And I was wondering what I can do or any
other student or any other person in this country or Iran or any other
country, any Iranian outside of Iran or in Iran that can wake up people and
tell them not to be afraid.
AUDIENCE: I'm (inaudible). I
live in Boston.
Would you comment on the prevalence of abortion in Iranian society, and what
your position on abortion is?
INTERPRETER: The question was about
the arrest of many Iranian journalists that are in jail. The question was
whether Dr. Ebadi's NGO in Iran
is collaborating with international NGOs trying to free these journalists.
And Dr. Ebadi started by saying that I have already discussed some of these
previously.
MS. EBADI: For example, in
addition to Mr. Azizzi of (inaudible) that you mentioned (inaudible) has also
been arrested. Unfortunately, there are so many of these jailed journalists
that I cannot mention all of them. We have established an NGO for defense of
human rights in Iran,
and anybody who comes to us and asks for help, we will help. Every three
months we release a report in which we talk about all the political prisoners
that we have been defending and release the names of all the political
prisoners that we are aware of.
What Iranians outside
of Iran can do to help Iran is do what they do within Iran, which is whatever information that you
receive regarding Iran,
first check whether it is accurate or not. And if it is accurate, pass it on
to other people so that the public becomes aware of what is going on within Iran.
Don't forget, you are
Iranian. Abortion is illegal in Iran unless, according to a
medical doctor, legal and officially appointed doctor, the life of the mother
is in danger if pregnancy is continued. In other words, if the fetus is
healthy and the mother is also healthy, abortion is illegal. You asked my
opinion about abortion as a defender of human rights. First, I tell you my
opinion and then add something to it. In my opinion as a defender of human
rights, a woman must be free to decide for herself whether she wants to have
an abortion or not. But what I wanted to add was that you asked me the
question and I responded to you, but I don't find the question completely
appropriate because this is a personal view. So let me ask you a question.
What toothpaste did you use this morning when you brushed your teeth?
MS. BHABHA: On that note, I want
to hand it over to John. But thank you both very much for a wonderful
conversation.
MR. SHATTUCK: In addition to
thanking Dr. Ebadi and Jacqueline Bhabha for this extraordinary forum, I also
want to add my thanks to Mohammad Sahimi, who is our wonderful translator.
And I'm afraid I did not introduce him beforehand and he did a terrific job.
Let's hear it for him. Thank you.
Thank you all for
coming. I think you've heard the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in its
most personal and wonderful leadership embodiment. Thank you.
|