TOM PUTNAM: Good evening and welcome. I'm Tom Putnam, Director of the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, and on behalf of Heather Campion, CEO of the Kennedy Library Foundation, and all of my Library and Foundation colleagues, I thank you for coming. I want to acknowledge the generous underwriters of the Kennedy Library Forums: lead sponsor Bank of America, Raytheon, Boston Capital and the Lowell Institute, the Boston Foundation, and our media partners, The Boston Globe, Xfinity and WBUR. Tonight's program is also co-sponsored by the Consulate-General of Japan.
Let me pause for a moment. This is the first Forum in which we're joined by Heather Campion, who's been a member of our Foundation Board for many years, and we are thrilled that she is now in this new leadership role in our unique public and private partnership as CEO of the Kennedy Library Foundation.
The genesis of tonight's Forum is two-fold. First, President Obama's decision to appoint Caroline Kennedy as our nation's Ambassador to Japan; and second, an article written by one of our speakers, Jennifer Lind, which was sent to me by then-Ambassador Designate Caroline Kennedy as she was preparing for her confirmation hearings.
Published in The National Interest last summer, the cover title is "RFK's Charmed Diplomacy." The story describes, among other things, the remarkable shift in relations between the United States and Japan during the Presidency of John F. Kennedy and the key figures and turning points that stemmed the tide. We're pleased to have Jennifer Lind here with us tonight. She's an associate professor of government at Dartmouth College and, as you will hear this evening, sees Robert Kennedy's 1962 trip to Japan as a potential model for improving our relations today in international hotspots, such as Afghanistan and the Middle East.
Professor Lind is the author of Sorry States: Apologies in International Politics, a book that examines the effect of war memory on international reconciliation. She is currently working on an article about foreign policy issues in the Western Pacific, and on a book examining the speed and complexities with which countries rise to the status of great powers.
I was on a long drive this morning and I googled her name to see if I could listen to a talk she gave last fall at Harvard, and I did find it under YouTube, under the name Jennifer Lind, but curiously it was followed by basketball clips featuring Jeremy Lin. [laughter] So we'll have to test Jennifer's three-point shot after tonight's Forum.
To help provide the Japanese perspective on this history, we're joined this evening by Harvard professor emeritus Akira Iriye. Professor Iriye was born in Tokyo, and came to the US as a college and graduate student during the period which we'll be discussing this evening. He's taught at a number of American universities and in 1989 he returned to Harvard, where he had earned his doctorate and eventually became the Charles Warren Professor of American History. Professor Iriye has written widely on American diplomatic history and Japanese-American relations, and he's the only Japanese citizen ever to serve as the president of the American Historical Association.
Now, during the most transformative and pivotal decade in our country's history, by many accounts Robert F. Kennedy served as the conscience of our nation, advancing civil rights, alleviating poverty and seeking an end to the Vietnam War. He began the decade by leading his brother's successful campaign for the Presidency; in fact, none of us would be here today were it not for the crucial role that he played in one of the closest elections in our country's history.
From there, he served not only as Attorney General of the United States, but as President Kennedy's most trusted advisor and, as we will discuss this evening, he also took on a key role as a global ambassador.
Robert F. Kennedy's oldest daughter, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, who was also Joseph and Rose Kennedy's first grandchild, proudly continues to carry forth her father's legacy with energy, grace and distinction. She served as Maryland's first woman lieutenant governor, as a former deputy assistant attorney general of the United States, a professor of public policy, and an author. As always, Kathleen, you honor us tonight with your presence. Thank you. [applause]
Now, before we begin our conversation, I'd like to introduce the Consul General of Japan and Boston, Akira Muto. Consul General Muto came to Boston in 2012 following a number of domestic and international assignments for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, both in Washington, DC, and in Moscow. Immediately prior to his assignment here in Boston, he served as director of the policy coordination division in Tokyo, where he helped shape Japanese foreign policy in a variety of areas, including strengthening the Japanese-US alliance, maintaining friendship and goodwill between Japan and the United States as comprehensive partners. He recently accompanied Governor Patrick to Japan and there he met with Ambassador Kennedy, who urged him, and then emailed me, to forge a stronger partnership between the Kennedy Library and the Japanese Consulate here in Boston.
So please join me now to welcome Consul General Akira Muto, who will provide brief opening remarks. [applause]
AKIRA MUTO: Good afternoon. Thank you, Miss Campion, Miss Townsend, Mr. Putnam and Dr. Lind. Over 20 years have passed since the end of the Cold War, and yet the world has become an even more complicated place since then. In the Eastern Hemisphere, due to China's rise, past vision has dramatically changed. And in the Western Hemisphere, Russia's annexation of Crimea has sent a strong shock throughout Europe, enveloping the area in an atmosphere of crisis. Europe again stands at a crossroads and is close to the brink of confrontation.
We should not make an easy compromise in the face of attempts by any country, whether in the West or in the East, to change the status quo by coercion, since it is today a fundamental tenet of international order that the status quo cannot be made to change by the use of force. The current situation requires a certain patience from us. But the [inaudible] of peace lie in a belief in such values as democracy, freedom and the rule of law. And I believe that it is these values to which Japan and the United States share a commitment that will guide us in our joint efforts to address the challenges of our day.
At the same time, I would like to emphasize the importance of moving the world to a just and lasting peace. It was the perspective of President Kennedy that maintaining the peace was not only a matter of security between powerful nations, but also a matter of fundamental human rights. As President Kennedy once said with respect to the Soviet threat and I quote, "So let us not be blind to our differences, but let us also direct attention to a common interest and the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future, and we are all mortal." End quote.
This year, a half-century has passed since President Kennedy strongly wished to be the first post-war American President to travel to Japan. He was unable to fulfill this plan due to his untimely death by assassination. But now his daughter, Caroline Kennedy, is serving as US Ambassador to Japan. In Japan-US relations, President Kennedy recognized the importance of supporting a broader dialogue and frequent exchanges between Japanese and Americans. Indeed, as we'll see in the program, President Kennedy sent his brother Robert on an advance mission to Japan to begin such a dialogue with the Japanese people. We need to strengthen this dialogue even today.
The reason for holding today's Forum is to take a good look at the relationship between President Kennedy and Japan at the beginning of 1960s, thereby trying to find a way of assessing what is most important in our relations at this critical juncture. Today's Forum will almost certainly be followed later this year by an exhibition in Japan of items from the holdings of the JFK Library and Museum.
Through these events, it is my fervent hope that our people will deepen their understanding of how President Kennedy's efforts contributed to the peace in the region and to the development of democracy in Japan, and how the baton of his mission has been passed along to his daughter, Ambassador Caroline Kennedy.
Thank you very much. [applause]
TOM PUTNAM: So we're going to have a conversation here for about 45 minutes, and then we will welcome questions from you. There are microphones there, and we hope to keep this lively.
Sometimes, when you go to see a movie or read a book, it opens with a scene from the middle of the story, and then the subsequent chapters go back and give you the history. And I thought that might be a fun way to start this evening. The heart of the story that we're going to talk about is Robert and Ethel Kennedy's trip, and I want to give the history building up to it.
But I thought we would start -- and you can bring the screen down -- with a clip from a film from Kathleen's youngest sister, Rory, a documentary that I imagine many of you have seen on her mother Ethel that came out last year. And in the film, it focuses a little more on Kathleen's mother than her father, although her father plays a role in this clip as well, but it focuses on the trip to Japan. I thought that might be a fun way for us to begin our conversation.
So let's play the clip and we can watch it.
[Film clip]
TOM PUTNAM: So I thought I might just start by asking, because I'm sure people would like to know, where is your mother today? How is she doing? And what was her own reaction to this film when it came out?
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Thank you. Well, my mother is actually in Florida today, and after this I'm going to go visit her. So I will tell her that you've all asked about how she's doing. She's doing great. She's totally mortified by the fact that she did practice so hard to get the Japanese right. But she was very happy with the film, and we're all happy that my sister Rory was able to interview her. My mother didn't like to be interviewed. She came from that generation of Americans that were not very selfreflective. I don't know if anybody of that age is here tonight. [laughter] But my sister did a terrific job in getting Mummy to talk about what it was like to grow up and to be married to my father, and what they went through together. So it was great.
TOM PUTNAM: And again, I'm not going to let you tell all the stories about the Japan trip right now, but we got a good sense of your father in that clip, too, his earnestness, his ability to use humor, but also to confront people straight on. I thought you might comment on that.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, I thought we were going to see …
TOM PUTNAM: But about your dad in general. That clip kind of captured how he was able to both engage people with humor and with honesty.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Yes, he's very -- I can say as his daughter, the oldest -- he was very straightforward, and he had very high expectations and wanted you to meet them. So there was no, "Well, that was nice." Just so you got this, I just want to make sure: There was no way you should try your best. [laughter] That word was never uttered. And I remember I used to ride horses and somebody -- Marie Ridder, who was the Knight Ridder chain of reporters -- said, "Oh, you should try your best, Kathleen." He said, "No, Marie, you don't try your best. You win." [laughter] So there was very high expectations about what you should do. And there were high expectations about what was right and what was wrong. And as you'll see in the clips later on -- and it was what I learned growing up when he was going after the mobsters in some of the unions and in some of the corporations, or when he thought the people who were defending segregation were wrong -- he went after them because he thought they were wrong, and he just saw that clearly.
He was a big believer in freedom so when people were, as you'll see later in the clips – and you'll know that at that time communism was very strong, it was tied with the Cold War, as you said – and there were many people in Japan who thought that the communists had a view of equality and justice that was much more attractive than capitalism and what they thought America represented. He was willing to take it on because he really believed in our country, and he was excited to take it on because he believed so deeply; he wasn't afraid of it.
I think today people are sometimes afraid of confrontation with people who disagree with them. My father, in fact, because he believed so deeply in what he did, was willing to go into the toughest audiences. He did it in Japan, and as you know, if you ever come back, he did it in Latin America. And he did it in colleges here in the United States when people would say, "Who's going to pay for this," and he said to the students, "You will." [laughter] Not a really popular thing to do. And he had a very good sense of humor as well and a self-deprecating humor about what was going on.
TOM PUTNAM: So let's back up a minute, and maybe, Jennifer, you could start by …
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: You don't want me to sing the …
TOM PUTNAM: We're going to do that later.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: I'm going to sing you a song later, which you're so lucky to hear. [laughter]
TOM PUTNAM: So again, in your article when you described the situation between the United States and Japan, there's a sense of rupture, and then there's a sense of rescue. But if you could explain: What's the frayed relationship and the rupture that happened in the 1950s? And then we'll hear from Professor Iriye on the same point. But how did that happen and what was going on in the buildup to the Kennedy Administration?
JENNIFER LIND: I think it's really important to appreciate just what the turnaround meant and to appreciate how striking a transformation this really was. You have to understand just how bad relations really were in the 1950s, and it was for a variety of reasons. Societal relations were pretty distant. We had just fought this terrible war against one another. In the United States, racism towards Japan was still pretty prevalent, so our societies weren't connected.
Economically, Japan was engaged in this reconstruction and the years of its economic miracle, and was engaging in some predatory trade practices and dumping that kind of policy. It was really angering a lot of American firms and a lot of American politicians.
So, economically, our relations were pretty bad.
And then politically, this was a very intense time during the Cold War where there were repeated crises in the 1950s over Berlin and over Taiwan. These were crises that could have gone nuclear at anytime and had led to World War III. So the Japanese were looking at this alliance, which was going to be up for renewal, the Security Treaty, and many Japanese said, "This is way too dangerous for us. We don't want to be caught in the middle. We don't want to be on the Soviet target set by virtue of this alliance." So as that treaty renewal approached, there was increasing protest about continuing this alliance with the US, and there's this great sense of danger from these crises that were just happening all the time.
The apex of all this was, of course, the 1960 Security Treaty protests in Japan, where people filled the streets in Tokyo with protests and anti-treaty demonstrations. That was, really the late 1950s was this period where we really weren't sure if this alliance was going to make it.
TOM PUTNAM: Professor Iriye, we're so short on time, but maybe we could go to the next step, which is Ambassador Reischauer, before he was Ambassador, wrote an article or suggested a solution to this fractured relationship. Perhaps you could comment on what his position was and what his proposed solution was to the problem.
AKIRA IRIYE: 1960, during the height of this crisis, demonstrations, and so on, both Edwin Reischauer, who taught Japanese history at Harvard, and John Fairbank, who taught Chinese history at Harvard, were in Tokyo. And I was in Tokyo primarily to interpret for John Fairbank. He had a real sense of mission, I think.
And as you were saying, both are firm believers in people-to-people diplomacy, how important it is to establish connections among all kinds of people, groups of people, private individuals, as well as government officials. So one thing that both Reischauer and Fairbank tried to do -- but we are focusing on Reischauer at this point -- was to see how some dialogues, positive, constructive dialogue could be begun between Japanese and Americans. I think that was the impact of his foreign affairs article, a very famous article in which he talked about the need for more dialogue.
This view that there was something wrong with US and Japan, that may be true at one level, but I came to the United States in 1953, and this society was just so marvelous. It could not have been more hospitable, more open-minded, generous. So my experience as one person-to-one person diplomacy was just absolutely wonderful. I've been in the United States for 61 years. I have not had one unpleasant experience in the United States.
TOM PUTNAM: That's reassuring.
AKIRA IRIYE: I've had more unpleasant experiences in Japan than elsewhere. [laughter]
TOM PUTNAM: So let me advance the story a bit. President Kennedy actually reads Edwin Reischauer's article. It was always important to him to pick the best and the brightest, so he chooses him to be his Ambassador. And then, Professor Lind, maybe you can tell us the story. Then there's a discussion about this presidential trip and who advanced that notion, and what were they hoping for if President Kennedy had been able to take that trip?
JENNIFER LIND: There's a mysterious Japanese professor who John F. Kennedy had befriended during a trip to a Japan in 1952, and they stayed in touch. This is a Professor Hosono. And Hosono, I think, was very persistent and he came to Washington all the time and was always trying to meet with Robert Kennedy, with John F. Kennedy. They became quite good friends and he was invited with his daughter to the inaugural and represented the government of Japan at the inauguration. And he was one of these people who was very influential in Japan and really believed in the need for a presidential visit as a way of moving relations along between these two countries.
This was going to be such an extraordinary visit, and I just so keenly feel the fact that this never happened because it's so extraordinary. The idea was President Kennedy, who of course had served in the Pacific and his ship PT109 had been torpedoed by a Japanese destroyer, was going to have a reunion with the crew of the PT109 and the crew of the Japanese destroyer that sank it. This would have been this amazing moment in the history of our two countries, where these two enemies are now reconciled. This was the trip that the President sent his brother to plan as a member of his advance team.
TOM PUTNAM: So we'll jump really to that trip. And again, maybe Kathleen, memories that you, just the beginning, before we get to the Waseda fight song, but you were about 10 years old at the time. Do you remember your parents heading off on trips like that?
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Yes. They went on the trip to Japan and this was the time that my … Of course. I'm going to talk about me and my brothers and sisters. Two of my brothers were being confirmed, which usually when you're confirmed -- that's in the Catholic tradition -- your parents are supposed to be there for you. [laughter] This has completely nothing to do with Japan, but I'm just giving you one of the issues that came out of this trip. My brother chose as his Confirmation name – my brother Joe, who some of you may know – chose Jacob because he wrestled with God. [laughter] Which he still does. And my parents came back from the trip horrified that he would choose Jacob as his Confirmation name. Anyway, that's just funny, for those of us who know Joe.
So they went to Japan. They went on a long trip. I think I can tell you a little bit when they came back, they were very excited about who they had met. They met Mr. Morita and that was the first time we learned that there was this incredible electronics company that was going to do really well, because they came back with all these amazing electronics, which we had never seen. We had thought of Japan as doing little pieces of paper and suddenly, we had the coolest electronics over anybody for the next five years, because Mr. Morita kept sending them to us. So that was very cool. I don't know, does that sound interesting to you? [laughter]
And, of course, we heard about the tea ceremony, the four-hour tea ceremony that you had in Kyoto. And that was interesting because my parents usually couldn't sit still for anything, but they did for the tea ceremony. But one of the most interesting -- and I think you're going to see this -- is my father … Do you want me to talk about this now?
TOM PUTNAM: Sure, go ahead.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: So one of the most interesting events of that trip – and you speak very eloquently about this in your article – was when my father went to Waseda University and, obviously, please correct me if I'm wrong, but when I've gone to Japan, the great university is supposed to be the University of Tokyo, which is sort of the Harvard, the brightest, the Harvard, the Stanford of Japan. Waseda was more the working … Is that fair to say? Okay, moving right along. [laughter] A tougher group of people, not as refined. Okay, you can edit me at any point and will, I'm sure.
So my father was there and there was a young man who was protesting, saying how terrible the United States was, how terrible capitalism was, and screaming at him and screaming at him. The Japanese were horrified because this was televised and how could you do this, this was so rude and this is so much unlike what you're supposed to do in Japan.
My father, unlike anybody they'd ever seen, said, "Well, we believe in dialogue," and reached down and pulled the young man on stage and said, "Talk!" [laughter] And he couldn't believe it either, because nobody had ever actually said on stage "talk." So in front of this audience that was stunned, you had an American willing to listen to a student, the student being very angry about the United States and Daddy willing to listen and then talking and defending.
As you can see in part of the clip, that wasn't the exact thing. He said, "We've changed in 100 years. We're not the same empire builders that were Admiral Perry." I think it was on TV over and over again throughout Japan, and I think in a moment just transformed the view of Japanese about America, because they had seen a person who was willing to engage, who was not afraid, who was there and was with people and with the students. Then, my father, who has the worst voice. Do you know what that means? Cannot sing at all. At church, we would always just go like this when Daddy sang. But he'd always sing with a very loud voice just to embarrass all of us. He then learned the Waseda fight song and he came home and he taught it to all of us. So for your benefit: Waseda, Waseda, Waseda, Waseda, Waseda, Waseda, Waseda. [laughter/applause]
I don't think many of you went to Waseda. I don't think you were as excited about Waseda as you could have been. [laughter]
TOM PUTNAM: So we'll watch the film clip in a moment, but maybe to just get a little bit more background, Professor Iriye, maybe it would be helpful. The US was being critiqued in Japan both from the right and from the left; the conservatives were upset and the students who tended to be more on the left. But could you describe what was the anger about from the Japanese perspective during the time of that trip?
AKIRA IRIYE: I was already in United States in 1958, after 1956; I was not a personal witness to this. I did go back in 1960, as I said. But I think you're right in saying that students' opinion, most people's opinion, tended to be divided between radical leftwing perspective and more conservative. The leftwing view, that was one in which there was strong opposition to the Security Treaty with the United States, to Japanese rearmament, to the policy towards China. I'd say most of them wanted a relationship with China, which the Japanese government was not going to do, focusing on Taiwan instead. So I think there were all kinds of reasons for that.
On the rightwing side, it was still the residue of pre-war militarism, conservatism, that kind of thing. What matters worse, of course, was the fact that the prime minister, before 1960, that's Kichi, Kichi was one of those warmongers -- you might say war criminals -- who got China into trouble in the 1930s/1940s, and was tried as a war criminal and so on. But he was running the country. So I think it was not just leftwing ideological opposition to the government, but the fact that someone like that was running the government of Japan, and the United States was backing him and he was backing the idea of a USJapanese security treaty. So I think we have to understand that.
It was not anti-Americanism as much as anti-Kichi. Because I was there, talking to people who were demonstrating in 1960 at the time, and much of that was against the way he was handling opposition parties and so on. And many people were totally middle of center, moderate people were aggravated by the way the government was dealing with public opinion. So I think most of this group said, "Well, we want to learn from the United States. We want to emulate the country in making Japan into a more respectable, democratic society." So we do have to remember that, too.
TOM PUTNAM: And Professor Lind, Kathleen's already told the story, but there were a few details she left out in terms of how many students were in the hall and what happened to the power. Maybe you can fill in those stories before we watch the clip.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Thank you, Tom.
TOM PUTNAM: But no, it's just such a fascinating story.
JENNIFER LIND: It really was a pivotal night, as you said. So they were already in the car on the way to the auditorium at Waseda. They were already getting reports from the CIA that there was going to be trouble, that there were communist student organizers and agitators who were planning on disrupting the event, and they were being warned "You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this."
So Reischauer and Robert Kennedy and Ethel, they were having this discussion about "Should we go?" And they decided that they should go. They decided they should give it a try. Again, it's an interesting moment when we talk about being willing to go into confrontation, being willing to go into a place that is not particularly excited to see you and hear what you have to say. That was one moment that night that was an important decision.
They get there and there's an auditorium that's built for, I think, 1500 people. And it was filled with 4000 students, just absolutely packed to the rafters. And as Kathleen was saying, there's a series of students. There's some which were from the communist student organizations, and they were shouting "Robert Kennedy, go home." And then there were the kind of Kennedy supporters and the more pro-American students who were shouting at their student colleagues to shut up. So they're all shouting at each other.
Robert Kennedy later wrote in his memoirs, "I was standing there and here's this kid who's just screaming and screaming at me and I could tell I wasn't going to be able talk.
So I said, 'The gentleman evidently disagrees with me,'" in his very wry way [laughter]. "Perhaps he'd like to ask me a question and then I will answer, because that is the democratic way." And as you said, he lifted his hand down, brought him onto the stage to everyone's surprise, and then proceeded, the Attorney General of the United States, to hold this microphone for this student as he then went on an anti-American rant [laughter] for a few minutes.
It really was just very compelling, this image of this respectful American dignitary who wanted to hear what this young Japanese man had to say. He wanted to hear, he wanted to listen. It was this incredible gesture. Then after that, the student is exhausted and he concludes his speech. And then Robert Kennedy gets ready to address and someone cuts the power on the microphone. Then basically pandemonium breaks out because people are very angry that the Attorney General is seen at being silent. It really starts to go south very quickly. The students start shoving each other. It's one of these auditoriums with the bolted-down seats, and people are lifting up the seats and ripping them from the floor. I mean, I've luckily never given a talk that ended up with that happening. [laughter] I don't think that'll happen tonight either; you guys look pretty well behaved, I have to say.
But things were really getting dangerous and Reischauer recalls thinking, "I have to try something." So he stands up and calms the crowd and asks them in his fluent Japanese, and he said he was stunned that they actually listened [laughter] and they were quiet. Then, someone procured a bullhorn, apparently. This was one of my funnier moments doing this research when I interviewed several people who were there that night. And I think five or six individuals told me, "Well, luckily, I had brought along a bullhorn." [laughter] So I developed great empathy for my historian colleagues who actually try to put together what happened in the past. But someone brought a bullhorn and the Attorney General was able to speak through the bullhorn and address the crowd and just spoke these wonderful words about respect and tolerance and the need to listen to one another, and how that kind of dialogue could only be had in a democracy, and would have been impossible in the kind of societies that these communist students were advocating.
The event was completely turned around, and the Waseda cheerleader starts yelling from the back of the auditorium and says, "We feel very bad about your treatment tonight. We would like to sing the school song for you as a way of showing our apology." And so, he comes running up on stage and somebody scratched together kind of a transliteration of the words, and luckily the chorus is just, "Waseda, Waseda." [laughter]
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: The fact that I know the Waseda fight song just shows you what a big deal it was in our family's history.
JENNIFER LIND: Everybody joined in and started singing. And actually, the cheerleader was conducting so energetically, he thwacked Ethel in the stomach and knocks her over. [laughter] And she just jumps right up and smiles, no problem, not a problem. So again, great poise under pressure. Many of the people I interviewed said, "That song, that song was so important." They talked about how it really transformed the group and energized this delegation, and they sang it the rest of the week everywhere they went. And it was often very puzzling to the labor leaders organization or whatever; they would start breaking out into the Waseda school song. And then apparently, I hear it was performed quite often …
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: At our house.
JENNIFER LIND: … at your house.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: We heard it a lot, don't worry. How else
would I keep singing it? When you asked me to come up, I was so eager to be able to get yet another opportunity to sing.
TOM PUTNAM: So we'll watch the film clip now. This is done by US Information Service, so it's shortened and it's slightly edited. So for instance, you don't see Ethel getting the elbow, although you can see that on YouTube; I watched it this week.
JENNIFER LIND: It's on YouTube.
TOM PUTNAM: Adding: He was really just very excited and she's coming forward.
JENNIFER LIND: Oh, my gosh, the poor thing.
TOM PUTNAM: And we don't see the bullhorn and everything. My favorite part of the clip, which will be a little hard for you to see, at one point the Marxist students are fighting over the microphone. And you'll watch, it's towards the end, and Robert Kennedy just kind of sits on this desk and he's just kind of smiling at them [laughter], kind of just enjoying the show himself, like, "This is really unbelievable that this is happening right in front of me."
So let's watch that film clip now. Thank you.
[Film clip]
TOM PUTNAM: Okay, so there is obviously a serious point to all of this, too. Professor Lind, why don't we let you, again, make the point that you make in your article, even for contemporary times and the diplomatic history, this type of diplomacy. Comment on why it stood out to you and why it could be an example for our times.
JENNIFER LIND: I think what stood out to me is the contrast between the approach in the previous years and the period of the 1960s that was attempted under Kennedy, where again it seemed like the United States felt like it could conclude an alliance that was really just between elites, where our elites decided to form an alliance with their elites, and that that could be enough. It was kind of a marriage of convenience, and it didn't have to be particularly deep, and the societies didn't have to really buy in to it. I think what we saw is that that was not going to be something that could be particularly enduring. Indeed, we nearly lost it as a result. So the insight was that we had to connect these two societies in a deeper way and have the people have closer relations than they had had before.
We see this around the world today, where again we see and we've seen it since then, where we see governments engaging in strategic marriages of convenience without connecting really the two societies. I think that the lesson of this, this period in Japan-US relations, is that once those governments change, how enduring might those alliances be and that if you want an enduring alliance, you really need the societies to feel that connection to one another.
TOM PUTNAM: Thank you.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: That's really well said.
TOM PUTNAM: And Professor Iriye, maybe you could also talk about the CULCON. So this wasn't the only thing the Kennedy Administration and the Japanese government did, but they encouraged a series of exchanges. Perhaps you could talk about how that happened during this period.
AKIRA IRIYE: I do think that one of the great things that the US did do was to initiate these kinds of exchange programs almost as soon as the war came to be over, because we do have the Fulbright program, we have various other programs that the government or Congress or private foundations initiated. I think the United States has been a promoter, has been very important influence in that regard, in making the connections that you're saying. Connections are everything; they're just so important.
And how do you make connections after a war? Well, you make connections by reestablishing personal ties, I think. Fortunately, as Reischauer used to say, there had been pre-war connections Reischauer himself had studied in Japan in the 1930s. There had been Japanese who had studied in the United States in the 1930s. So it's not as if they had nothing. Some of those connections were reestablished, and the new ones were created or encouraged by Fulbright program, various other kinds of things.
I was very fortunate. I myself came to the United States in 1953 because Ambassador Joseph Grew – Mr. Grew was US Ambassador to Japan for ten years, 1932 to 1941 -- and he established a foundation called the Joseph C. Grew Foundation. He just donated money to invite young Japanese high school graduates to come to the United States because they thought this reconciliation has to start with the younger generation. I was just so very fortunate to have been picked as one of the younger generation to come to the United States.
I think the generational thing here is very, very important. We were the younger generation. At that time there was a profound gap between the wartime generation, the generation even of the 1920s and '30s who had brought Japan all these problems:
tragedy, aggression, atrocities, everything. That generation was represented by Kichi. So there was a big, big generational issue.
In the United States you had President Eisenhower, all this of the same generation, different, opposite sides. Then in the 1960s you have the younger generation. President Kennedy was born in 1917, and his counterpart in Japan was Ikeda right after Kichi resigns in disgrace, and I think he should have resigned much sooner than he did but in fact he does resign, represented older generation. Now his successor, Ikeda, was older than Kennedy, but still a different generation. And that seemed to me that so much of this reconciliation took place at the level of my generation, the teenaged generation and then somewhat younger. President Kennedy's generation found it, I think, much easier to reestablish these connections.
I don't want to talk about problems today, but one issue today is, of course, the generational issue. I often wonder about that. People who are running the country in Japan today are of a different generation, and I think we've got all kinds of problems but I don't want to go into that.
TOM PUTNAM: Well, we will at the end, I promise. And Prime Minister Ikeda came to the White House and had a meeting with President Kennedy and again set up a very successful exchange, cultural exchange program and student exchange program.
Kathleen, I thought almost reiterating Professor Lind's points, but when your father traveled, he would meet with the elites, he did what he had to do, but what was his …
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: But he would also love to meet with the students and with the people, and that's what he thought you should do. Because he said you don't know who's going to be the next government. You want to know who's the next government. They could be in opposition today, and they could be in government later on.
My family was very lucky with my grandfather, Joseph P. Kennedy, because they had seen him as Ambassador, they had been able to travel around the world to Japan. I mean, how many had been to Japan? And he had been to Southeast Asia or he'd been to Latin America. So they had seen so much in their own experience, in their own lifetimes the 20 years before they got into power, or 30 years, the changes occurring. So they knew that the elite might be here today, but not there tomorrow.
So they understood that just intellectually. But physically, just emotionally, they liked rebels. [laughter] I mean, they were rebels in the United States. They were first the Irish Catholic President. So they had understood being left out and left behind, and they understood discrimination. So they were very much understanding what it was like to be not part of the elite and be part of the elite. Obviously, my grandfather had done quite well so they always had their feet in both camps, which is unusual. It's hard to do that and keep that balance, because people want to be in one or the other. And they were able, I think with quite a genius, to be in both camps. And you know this well, the same thing happened in Africa or Latin America; they would do the same thing.
Now I was just being political, but we didn't see the clips of … My parents also believed in showing that they liked doing things that people liked to do. And there are other clips, if you ever see them, of Mummy and Daddy ice skating. I guess people liked to ice skate in Japan and they wanted to ice skate, and they got lots of Japanese and kids going ice skating. So you saw these Americans, "Oh, this is the elite, the President's brother, he must be really important." And there he is ice skating and not particularly gracefully. [laughter]
TOM PUTNAM: And also, I think they were aware of the image they gave off.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Image is important. In other words, go ice skating. Mummy would wear these funny fur hats and it was fun, and it was make an effort, be with people. She would visit, again, because she's Catholic, she visited the Sacred Heart School in Tokyo because she had gone to Sacred Heart schools in the United States. I went to a Sacred Heart school in Washington, and we were very excited because she was visiting our sister school. It's like going to a Jesuit school. I don't know if you've heard of Sacred Heart School.
Anyway, they were making real connections as much as they could, meeting people that they wouldn't normally, you wouldn't meet, and then meeting the elite. So trying to reach as many parts of the society as possible and saying, "We want to hear what you have to say." And not being afraid of it, being open to it.
TOM PUTNAM: And Professor Lind, maybe you can tell the story about the elevator, because I think it fits this point, of Robert Kennedy in the elevator.
JENNIFER LIND: So there's a funny story of when he was at the hotel Okura in Tokyo, a very beautiful, classic Japanese hotel. And again, we're talking about the man who's the ambassador of the equal partnership, as it was called, the Reischauer line or the Kennedy line was this notion that Japan and the United States should be equal partners and no longer kind of a victor and vanquished, but respectful equal partners.
He gets into the elevator one morning and there's the hotel manager and one of the beautiful women in kimono who rides the elevators at the Hotel Okura to spare the guests the indignity of having to press the buttons themselves.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: We had that.
JENNIFER LIND: So he gets into the elevator and the hotel manager gestures that she should shine Robert Kennedy's shoes. And so she immediately bends down and starts shining his shoes. And Robert Kennedy is just mortified and then it dawns on him at some point that the elevator doors would open to a bank of photographers [laughter], and there's this young Japanese woman shining the shoes of this American dignitary. Not the sort of moment that you want immortalized in a photo of the equal partnership, shall we say. So he said, "Oh, no please," and he bent down and he helped her up.
TOM PUTNAM: Professor Iriye made the point of the problems we face today, the challenges we face today, and I'd like to move to that. But I thought maybe we'll show the last film clip, because when Ambassador Caroline Kennedy was at her confirmation hearings, one of the points she made was the importance of continuing these types of cultural exchanges, and the dialogue amongst our people. It's partly why we're organizing not only this Forum this evening, but this exhibit that we will bring to the National Archives of Japan.
But I thought it might be fun – I'm not sure how many people have seen it – to see this short video that Ambassador Kennedy prepared to introduce herself to the Japanese people. And it makes this point as well. So let's watch this last film clip and then I'll ask you all to comment on the challenges of today.
[Film clip]
TOM PUTNAM: So we'll take your questions in just a minute, but maybe I'll have the panel give one last comment. And we'll start with you, Professor Iriye. I know it's too big of a topic or complex to leave for one last question, but the challenges facing the US and Japan today and any advice or comments you want to make about it.
AKIRA IRIYE: What Ambassador Kennedy was saying is absolutely right, talking about communication, commitment, cooperation. I just think that communication is so vital. Are the two people still communicating with each other? I'm much more optimistic on the American side; I'm less optimistic on the Japanese side because of the current leadership and also the current somewhat generational shift, I think. I feel that the country's somehow becoming less open-minded, less cosmopolitan, as Americans are becoming even more so. So there is a gap.
Whereas around 1960s, there was much more of a self-conscious attempt at establishing communication, intellectual dialogue, and so on. The CULCON that Jennifer Lind's article mentioned -- CULCON is a cultural committee or committee on culture exchange -- was one of President Kennedy's legacies, I think, to do something beyond just diplomacy by establishing dialogue, cultural dialogue, which is just absolutely important – today even more so, I think, than ever before. Is any kind of serious dialogue going on today? I'm not so sure.
So I think I would worry about that much more than I would about other aspects. Security, trade, they are fine. As far as I can tell, they're okay; they're going along well. Is there any kind of genuine understanding, cooperation? I would like to see it, if it exists here.
TOM PUTNAM: Professor Lind, any closing comments about the challenges that we face today? Either the US-Japan relationship, or just in terms of your expertise, in terms of diplomacy writ large, especially from the American perspective.
JENNIFER LIND: Well, when we look at the big changes in East Asia, the rise of China, as Consul Muto was mentioning before, is a prodigious challenge in terms of the neighboring countries in East Asia trying to manage and accommodate this very powerful neighbor who's coming into its own. And we all are wondering how will this neighbor behave as a great power? In terms of the US and Japan, the US and Japan are going to be confronted with alliance challenges as we face this. Japan has disputes with China that the US just does not share. So this is something that the two allies are really going to have to be managing very carefully.
As I talk about the challenges facing us today, I like to remind people that maybe there's some grounds for optimism here, where we are talking tonight about a time in the early 1960s when the US and Japan faced tremendous challenges and managed through really quite capable and enlightened leadership on both sides to navigate that really rocky period. Fast forward to today, we've got 60 or so years of trust and cooperation and this amazing foundation that the two countries have built. So we're in a better place today certainly than we were back then.
TOM PUTNAM: And you all – I'll ask Kathleen the final question – but if you have a question, begin to line up. And this is a hard question, Kathleen. We don't like to be cynical, we want to be optimistic and hopeful, and then there's some sense that what your father did can't be done again, whether it's security concerns … You just can't imagine Eric Holder on a stage like that being swarmed by people …
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, his brother's not President. It helped that his brother was President. You got to remember that. And then they passed a law that said you can't have your brother be in the Cabinet, or sister. Stupid Republicans.
[laughter] What did you think I was going to say?
What I do think President Obama– do you want me to say …
TOM PUTNAM: Sure.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: What I do think President Obama has done --
and I think that it would be really helpful and I think these kind of forums are helpful -- is to say we should have many more students study abroad. I think there was that book, The End of History, as though, okay, the end of the Cold War, the end of history, we're just going to rely on technology and all will be well, when you had to worry about climate change and not worry about politics and how to empower and what do people fear and what do they yearn for.
I think we've seen in the last two months obviously what Russia did with Crimea, and I think the challenge of China is a very real challenge to its neighbors and what its relationship is to Japan. And I'm disturbed what you said about Japan itself, that it's becoming more closed rather than more open. It's had a lot of challenges and the economic … Usually you hope that economics has a good way of teaching you to open up or to change, and you're saying it hasn't. So that's a fascinating critique which, obviously, the prime minister I think is trying to make some changes and with difficulty.
AKIRA IRIYE: He should.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: He should [laughter], all right, that sounds great. But I do think that if anything we can learn a lot from Robert Kennedy and from President Kennedy. But really what they learned from the experience they had is: Study. Travel. Go abroad. Do not accept anything that's just going on. Understand how other people live. Understand your own self. Think as much as you can.
If you look at the statistics about how many students in the United States study abroad, it's pathetic. There is almost no effort to really increase … I'm speaking of this because, just so you know, I'm actually a special advisor at the State Department on this very issue. So I'm on a soapbox that you've given me. [laughter]
There just could be so much more done in the way that we run our universities, to have more students go abroad. We have a politics now that is saying we should withdraw from the world. And I agree militarily, we do not have to be in every country. But we should understand the world, and be engaged in it, and be interested and curious.
I think really what my father shows in this clip is the great curiosity and the openness and the joy of learning about others, and the joy of being with others and enjoying others.
And if anything, if we could reengage that, it would be a great thing to do. [applause]
TOM PUTNAM: Our first question.
Q: This has been a marvelous panel: the combination of the personal stories, the importance of cultural diplomacy and that personal spark, both on the part of your mother and father, combined with the austere remarks of the two professors on the issues that were being addressed at the time, with Jenny sitting there in the middle trying to pull it all together.
Now, the question that I have is that when you look back to that period, we had a discussion of some of the issues that were outstanding. There was trade conflict. There certainly was concern in Japan over entrapment in the American policies, both in Southeast Asia and with Russia. And again, that personal spark that helped overcome some of these difficulties.
Now, the discussion at the end of the panel began to touch on some of the outstanding problems in the current period and the challenges that might be posed to a current Ambassador who is certainly reaching at a very personal level in making those connections. So the question, and it really is one that goes to all of you, is back to the issue that Tom raised, how do you see, or what do you see as the outstanding challenges that will have to be overcome? And we then turn to the issue of the characteristics, the representation, that personal spark, and do you think that that's actually going to be enough this time around?
TOM PUTNAM: Who would like to begin?
AKIRA IRIYE: Well, my answer's very easy and predictable. I'm a historian. So the answer is: Everybody has to study history [laughter] to promote international conversation and dialogue. That's a problem, really. I think despite all kinds of critical things that are being said about American education and so on, American scholarship, American historical scholarship is just superb. I mean, this is the best place in the world; if you want to study history professionally, you come to the United States. It's still the case.
In Japan, I said it's really a sad story that nobody's studying history seriously. The prime minister, least of all, I mean, each time he opens his mouth, I'm just so ashamed. He shows so much ignorance about the past. And the Chinese are right, the Koreans are right when they say the prime minister is distorting the past; he is. So I think I would have to say, not just to Japanese, to Americans, but to everybody, that to build a real world of communication, intellectual, I guess, coexistence, you have to start by studying the past. And by the past I don't mean all the way going back to ancient Mesopotamia, even though that may be important. But I do think everybody has to understand what has happened in the 20th century, you have to study that. I can go on and on, but simply the fact that sometimes as a historian I feel that I've not really done my task. Many people who should know better don't seem to know better about the past.
TOM PUTNAM: Thank you.
AKIRA IRIYE: Sorry.
TOM PUTNAM: No, that's very helpful. [applause]
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: I'm not quite sure what your question is.
What should Japan do? Or what should the United States do?
Q: There's an element of mutuality in the story that you told in terms of both parties, both cultures learning more about each other through the remarkable visits and efforts.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: I mean, first of all, in defense of your prime minister, since the Consulate can't speak [laughter], I'm going to say he is trying to get the economy going. And it's been pretty dead for 15 years, and he's trying to move it along. It's hard, but I have got to give him some credit for trying. Don't you give him credit? [laughter]
I think (a) that's difficult. I think there's difficulty in Japan, as you know, with …I'm trying to think of the word. We have in the United States called interlocking directorates; everybody's related to one another. It begins with a K? You don't have that term? Anyway, there's a term. It's going to come to me eventually. So I do think there's a lot of interlockingness in Japan, which probably could do with some more openness. And I'm sure you agree with that. As do you, I would think.
TOM PUTNAM: We have another question; why don't we go to the next question?
Q: Yes, hi. I'd like to preface my question by saying that I represent the New England JET Alumni Association. So having spent two years teaching English in Japanese public schools, I kind of have a vested interest in communication between especially students.
And your comment about study abroad I think is particularly salient.
I also want to say that I feel that recently in America students are increasingly having less opportunities to study Japanese, especially in public schools being taken over by the growth of China and the view of China being the new, rising power in Asia. So Japanese programs in the US have suffered. But I also see the same thing for Japanese students when you look at Japanese students' presence in American universities. They're far outnumbered by Korean students and Chinese students. So I wonder if you have any comments about -- obviously JET is one strategy to create this kind of cultural diplomacy -- but if you have any other strategies to help combat what I see as a backslide in this area.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, I think one of the challenges that Japan has is, they're not producing as many children. We could send my mother over there. [laughter] Or Marty's mother. But I mean, that really is one of the challenges. My sense is they're going to work that out. They're going to figure out: "We're going to either have to produce more children, we're going to have to change our policy on immigration, or we're going to have to give up being a global power." So what do you want? And most people don't like giving up being a global power, my thought would be.
AKIRA IRIYE: I just think immigration is the answer, because they're not going to produce more children. The only answer to this issue is to bring in more Chinese, more Koreans, more Vietnamese, more people from other countries, but then Japan ceases to be Japanese. That's the solution. I mean, I think just as the United States has made itself such a great country by inviting all these foreigners to come and settle, work for the country and so on, Japan has to emulate that. Japan has to be a small scale United States. That's why I say, when you start with Japan, United States, we're not talking about in the abstract US as some [inaudible]. After all, who are the Americans? When we talk about the American people, of course we have to keep in mind one million or so Chinese already are in this country, right? When you talk about Japan, in Japan itself, you have about 100,000 or so, maybe more Chinese. These countries are changing all the time, and that's for the better, I think.
So rather than dwelling on these bilateral issues, I think US-Japan relationship is part of a global nexus, global connection, a new emerging world, in which people are moving all over the world, working in different parts of the country and the world, learning different languages, and so on. In other words, the world itself is becoming more interblended, hybridized, hybrid, I guess. That's the kind of world we live in, and I think I'm very optimistic about that. The future of the world, that seems to lie in hybridization. That may be an extreme statement from somebody who has lived in the 20th century.
But I do think Japan, above all, has to be further transformed by means of immigration. It's a very, very important issue, and also internal immigration. In other words, there has to be greater communication between different classes of people, different sexes, different kinds of people, generations, and so on.
TOM PUTNAM: Any other questions? There's one here.
Q: I think I more have something to say rather than a question. And what Professor Iriye is saying right now about how Japan should emulate the United States, well, I don't think we're doing such a great job on immigration now. If we go to Arizona and states like that,
I'm very depressed reading the news about what goes on here and antagonism towards Mexican, or anybody, Spanish, who's a little bit different. I feel as though while the government of Japan is taking Japan in a backwards motion, I believe that there are many things going on in our country also.
Now, I'm married to a Japanese. We've been married for almost 40 years. I lived in Japan; I moved there two weeks after we were married -- had a Jewish ceremony in New York and then– [laughter] yeah, well, I just gave a talk about it yesterday. We live in Vermont. My husband's parents were rice farmers in a little village and they were not happy. They didn't know anything from religion, but the oldest son marrying an American? This was horrible. It took about a year before they got over it and we were able to have our Shinto wedding. I had a rural wedding.
But people always ask me, “How did you get involved with Japan?” And I say, “I'm actually the person in my family who had the least interest.” I wrote a book about my mother. My mother Addie Katz, in 1960, won a trip through Eisenhower's … Well, Eisenhower had a people-to-people program -- getting back to that people thing -- and they had a pen pal agency called “Letters Abroad,” that sponsored an essay contest for people who had gotten pen pals through “Letters Abroad.” My mother entered and won. We were living in a little village in Massachusetts at the time. Life magazine did a story on it. At this time, in history, this was a historic moment. We're talking about 1960. The security pact, we're celebrating 100 years of diplomatic relations between Japan and America, the first embassy in 1860. And the security pact, which …
TOM PUTNAM: I'm going to give you just a few more seconds.
Q: Okay. The violent demonstrations, my mother was able to go. She was welcomed with open arms as a grassroots representative of the United States. Eisenhower's trip that was planned for the same time had to be canceled. My mother was on TV, because Life magazine did a story on it. She was on TV afterwards talking about these experiences. And about history repeating itself, she was asked on November 11, 1960 – I have a recording of it, which is unbelievable – she's asked what does she think about this election, the results of the election. And everything that she says sounded exactly like it could have been said when Obama was first elected. It was so eerie. And I've given talks and people have said that to me, "It sounds just like when Obama was elected." But yeah, the people-to-people thing.
TOM PUTNAM: Thank you very much.
JENNIFER LIND: This just comes home so often. I just hear so many stories like this. I'm a fellow in this program, the Mike Mansfield Foundation, and they put together a network of Japan scholars. Every single person – this was a group who have devoted their careers to studying US-Japan relations, Japanese politics – every single person, some of them have a family background or have Japanese or full Japanese, whatever, but people who look like me don't often speak Japanese. There's some reason why they got interested, and it's something like the pen pal contest. Or for me it was, I was in the jazz band in high school and we were invited to the Tsukuba World Expo. My tenor sax and I went to Japan as a high school student. And this was an amazing, eye-opening experience. Here I am a few years later [laughter] having spent all this time studying Japanese, and now this is just such a major part of my career.
Everyone has a story that started with something so little and so personal. It's programs like the JET program, it's programs like this, and even visits. I mean, how many people have we heard talk of, "When I met Jack Kennedy," or, "When I met Bobby Kennedy," it was this pivotal moment in their lives. It's these little things that really can lead to tremendous connections between countries.
TOM PUTNAM: So I have one short – well, not short -- hopefully we can do brief questions to conclude, and then I want to end with a quote, which is what I've been looking for on my phone. Professor Iriye, he was given the challenge at the Nobel Centennial Conference in 15 minutes to talk about how fear, misperception and mistrust have affected, basically, world history during the 20th century. And you gave a lovely, lovely talk.
Your general point was this interesting issue that while we are perhaps more connected these days in terms of our economy or through technology, you saw that for some reason we're not connected. We don't see ourselves as one world family. The kind of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, though it's there, seems to always -- not always -- but often undercut by religion or race or class or history between countries, as we talked about the United States and Japan or China. But a final comment based on your many years as a distinguished professor on this important topic.
AKIRA IRIYE: I have to say that the 20th century world changed from a period of ancient history to one of contemporary history. What I mean by ancient history is when nations go to war against each other, kill each other, they despise each other, butcher other races, religions. That was the world from time immemorial, from 19th century to about the 1960s. That's why I do think the Kennedys are very important, very much part of the instruments of history, so to speak, changed the ways of the ancient world into modern ways. Modern ways mean, as you were quoting from President Kennedy, human rights, international communication, diversity, hybridity, all kind of things.
We live in a contemporary world and in my view the contemporary world of human rights and tolerance. Of course, we have different problems, but nevertheless, this is a much better world, because thanks to this stress on communication, human rights, diversity. I think we can, as historians, credit the Kennedys with much of this. They did not bring it about single-handedly, but a part of the global tide in 1960s began in the '60s, accelerated in 1970s.
So all the butchering that goes on, even today, I mean, there are these unfortunate legacies of ancient history, but we're not going to have another world war. We are not going to have another cold war, despite what the Russians are doing in Ukraine. We are not going to reenter the cold war phase. So I'm rather optimistic. At age 79, I think I'm very happy to say that I've seen much worse conditions than these, and we are at least moving in the right direction.
TOM PUTNAM: We're all optimistic if maybe we could live to be 79 and be as articulate and as energetic as you. [applause]
I don't mean to be spoon-feeding this optimistic ending, but it's not bad to end with optimism. And Professor Lind, you commented to me that you do a lot of research, you give a lot of talks, but somehow this story was different in the somewhat cynical, clinical, academic world. This particular article that you wrote affected you differently. I thought maybe you could comment on that as a final comment.
JENNIFER LIND: This was a very offbeat project for me that I really stumbled into. It was sort of this thrill of discovery. I had never heard of this visit. As a person who teaches on US-Japanese relations, I'd never heard of this visit. It was mentioned to me by Professor Ezra Vogel at Harvard, again, in conjunction with this Mansfield fellows program. We were having breakfast one morning at a conference and he said, "That was a really important thing in our relations. It was deeply meaningful to the Japanese. Have you ever looked into that?" And I said, "No, I've never heard of it." So I got interested and I read a couple books, and there was always one sentence about the visit: "And then Bobby visited Japan." So I'd read another book and there was another sentence. And I started to get the feeling like some interesting things happened, and that this might actually be significant. I just kept digging, and it was really exciting. But again, it's very much outside my normal international relations theory that I'm studying.
I felt a little awkward in the sense, as I expressed to you, that academia has really become one of the biggest critics of government policy. It's a hotbed for reactionary thought. Just basically, every op-ed by every academic is basically, "Here's what the government policy is doing. Here's why it's bad." That's the normal academic take on politics. As I was researching this, I was thinking, “Here's what this administration did. That was pretty great.” It put me in an awkward position because, again, amongst my hardboiled colleagues you don't want to be the dewy-eyed Kennedy groupie. [laughter]
TOM PUTNAM: We like Kennedy groupies. [laughter]
JENNIFER LIND: So that was the nature of what I was saying, that it felt a little odd.
But again, it was a wonderful thing to be able to spend some time, figuratively speaking, with your father and be so inspired by him and by your mother and by the insight and the leadership that they displayed.
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Thank you.
TOM PUTNAM: And Kathleen, any final words you'd like to share with the audience?
KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Thank you. You talked about human rights,
and I think human rights are very important, but what I think my father and President Kennedy did very well, and this is an example of it, is they actually put themselves in somebody else's shoes. Not intellectually, but viscerally. I think that it would be an interesting experience, when we think about teaching about human rights or about how we share a world, how we can put each other in shoes. And I'm just going to give two examples, not related to Japan, but just about how important that is.
In 1963, when President Kennedy gave his speech in which he said that civil rights was a moral issue, he said, "All of you, would any of you trade places with somebody who was black?" So he made it physically, graphically there in front of you. And everybody who's white in the United States knew that they were not going to trade places with somebody who was black. So it wasn't intellectually, "Oh, we should give freedom,” it was, "How does it feel to be black?"
And then a week later, he went to Germany. It was right after the Berlin Wall had been put up. And he could have given, again, an intellectual defense of freedom. It was, again, less than two decades after the end of World War II, where there were a lot of people who didn't like Germany, as they didn't like Japan. A lot of people's families had been killed by the Germans, particularly in Europe. His own brother had been killed in that war. Instead of just making it intellectual, he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner." He put himself in their shoes. And I've talked to Europeans who were horrified that he would say such a thing, because they didn't like being told that he was a Berliner. But he did it.
So it wasn't just talking human rights; he was putting himself, cloaking himself in the body of somebody else. And I think that's a much more visceral way of understanding their politics and a much more interesting way of thinking how do we bring ourselves together. Thank you. [applause]
TOM PUTNAM: So the Consul-General began us with a quote from one of my favorite speeches of President Kennedy, the speech he gave at American University. It's often called the speech about peace, the strategy of peace. But I thought we should give the final words to Robert Kennedy this evening, the famous trip to South Africa. The quote is probably familiar to you, but it's such a moving quote. You can hear it so many times. And it reminds all of us that each of us can really make a difference, that each of us can do our own diplomacy and can reach out to others.
So speaking to another group of students, although a far friendlier group of students in South Africa, but they were students who were quite threatening to those who were leading the apartheid regime. But Robert Kennedy made that famous trip to South Africa and said these words:
"Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and those ripples, crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Thank you all so very much. [applause]
THE END