MATT PORTER: The John F. Kennedy Presidential Library is also home to the archive of Senator Edward M. Kennedy, including documents recordings and photos from his four decades in the United States Senate. We'll speak with library archivist, Karen Abramson, about the recent release of the first batch of documents and photographs from the library's Edward M. Kennedy collection. The collection also includes more than 1900 recordings of Senator Kennedy debating the issues with Republican senators Bob Dole and Alan Simpson. We'll speak to Senator Simpson about what debating Senator Kennedy was like. And we'll also hear from longtime personal assistant, Barbara Souliotis, coming up all on this week's episode of JFK 35.
[THEME MUSIC]
MATT PORTER: Welcome to this week's episode of JFK 35 a podcast by the John F. Kennedy Library Foundation. I'm Matt Porter. We have a full episode this week about the Edward M. Kennedy collection, preserved here at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library Museum. The collection includes the full archive from President Kennedy's younger brother's more than four decades in public service as United States Senator.
And now for the first time the textual files from 1962 to 1976 are open and available to the public after being organized and prepared by our team of archivists here at the library. Joining me now is the library's Chief Archivist Karen Abramson. Karen, thanks for joining me today.
KAREN ABRAMSON: Thank you, Matt, for having me.
MATT PORTER: Karen, we just want to talk to you more about the new Edward Kennedy collection that you guys have recently opened. Tell us about the collection, and how it arrived here.
KAREN ABRAMSON: Sure. So the larger collection comprises about 6,000 boxes of material. If you put that end to end, we're talking over a mile of material. But the materials we're opening is a subset of that collection, about 385 cubic feet, or about 857 boxes of material.
So we're opening up our first subset of that larger collection. The collection came here over time in numerous segments, close to 200 transfers of material starting in about 1974 and ending in 2014. So we continued to receive materials over a 40 year period.
MATT PORTER: You know, one of the things I hear from people when we release the collection is we have the Edward Kennedy Institute next door, why did these documents end up here at the JFK library instead of that institution?
KAREN ABRAMSON: That's a good question. The reason really is that we are an archives, and the Institute is not. It really is an educational institution for the study of the Senate. Whereas, we are really an official archives that houses the political papers of most, if not all, of the Kennedy family members. So it's really a very legitimate place for these materials to be housed and served up.
MATT PORTER: Is it unusual for a senatorial collection to be at a presidential library?
KAREN ABRAMSON: I can't say with absolute certainty, but I would say, yes, generally speaking it is not that common for a senator's papers to be in a presidential library. Most of the time these papers would reside in the legislative archives, which is related to NARA. But, in this case, we're talking about a political dynasty, a political family. And from that perspective, it makes total sense for Senator Kennedy's papers to be part of the larger family political collections.
MATT PORTER: And just as a reminder for our listeners, NARA, as you mentioned, is the National Archives and Records Administration--
KAREN ABRAMSON: Correct.
MATT PORTER: --which oversees all sorts of documents-- important documents-- in the United States, correct?
KAREN ABRAMSON: Absolutely. Officially government records.
MATT PORTER: And so why do you think it's important that this collection be open to the public for people to read and see?
KAREN ABRAMSON: Well, I think there's various reasons for that. I think, first of all, he wanted them to be preserved here. I think he wanted his papers to be part of the larger family collections, and the political collections that we have here connected to the Kennedy family. I think that there is a lot of overlap and connections between Senator Kennedy's career and those of his brothers and other family members, who were involved in politics. And I think that it's important for those materials to be housed together so that people can see the connections, and also the distinct differences between them.
I also think it's really important, because Senator Kennedy had a long, very influential career in the Senate. He was a senator for 47 years. And so his career is really important for people to have an inside window into. He was involved in very important political issues of the day, education, health care, et cetera, et cetera.
And it's really important that the public actually see and understand that career and learn from it. It's also really important for transparency in our political system to prevail, and for these records to be open to the public so that we can hold our political representatives accountable. So starting with the Kennedy family going up to the importance of transparency in a political democracy, I think all of these reasons are important for why these papers are here.
MATT PORTER: In these documents that have been opened, we see letters to Senator Kennedy-- some from very influential people do you want to talk about some of those?
KAREN ABRAMSON: Sure, absolutely. We've come across a few of those. And certainly as Senator Kennedy's career became more expansive, his interactions with people on a larger scale became more prominent.
So we have found some correspondence with Martin Luther King Junior, with Cesar Chavez of the United Farm Workers Union, and there's even a constituent letter from James Cagney, the actor, who was writing in his capacity as a constituent from Martha's Vineyard. He was very mad that the Martha's Vineyard airport wanted to expand. He thought it was undermining the natural beauty of the area.
So it's always fun to find those kinds of things. But I also really want to emphasize that much of the materials that we've just opened relate to constituent services. And we have thousands of letters written by everyday constituents to Senator Kennedy documenting and asking for help solving problems that they were facing everyday.
I think those materials are just as, in some ways, more important than these famous letters, which we see documented across collections around the world. Whereas, the day to day concerns of citizens are not always so well-documented. And it's important that the public see those.
MATT PORTER: And these constituent letters really show a senator who is very active in answering lots of constituent mail.
KAREN ABRAMSON: Absolutely. And, in fact, you can see steadily how the number of constituent letters increased sort of exponentially over time. His office seemed to be quite, quite effective in responding. They tried to answer every single question to the best of their ability.
And people really came to him when they were sort of at their last resort. They really were sort of desperate and wanting his help. He took that role very seriously.
MATT PORTER: With Senator Kennedy's career lasting four decades, and stretching from the 60s all the way in to the early 2000s, do we see movements that occurred each during some of those decades? In particular, with his record being so long, does it give us a unique glimpse into the overall politics over the course of almost half a century?
KAREN ABRAMSON: It kind of does, because he was so influential. He was involved in so many important issues of the day. Absolutely, it really is a window into political, social, cultural issues that this country was struggling with from about 1962 through 2009.
Some of those issues are same as it ever was, like Groundhog Day, we see them being debated today. Some of them are really particular to the time and place in which he was serving as a senator. So it's interesting to see the combination of issues being documented throughout those periods.
MATT PORTER: As an archivist, here at the library, how does it make you feel to know that you are, not only preserving these documents, but making them available to the public?
KAREN ABRAMSON: Makes me feel great. [LAUGHS] It really reminds me of what an important job archivists have in preserving and providing access to the documented legacy of whatever it is that they're documenting. In our case, the workings of the Kennedy presidency, and the United States government, and various members of the family, who are involved in politics and all sorts of issues.
This was a really prominent family. And I think it's really important that people see the documentation that shows all of the issues that they were struggling with, both personally and professionally, and some of the good, bad, and the ugly, as well, which is really important in our work. So it makes us feel really important about what we do, because this is what people are going to be reading hundreds of years from now.
MATT PORTER: Right, and, you know, a lot of these will be available online. And, you know, I think the internet we often [INAUDIBLE] has a good side and a bad side.
KAREN ABRAMSON: That's right.
MATT PORTER: There's a lot of great information out there. There's a lot not so great. So you must, I assume, feel pretty good that this type of information-- these primary sources-- will be available to people.
KAREN ABRAMSON: Absolutely, that's a really good point, Matt. You know, in an age where we hear about alternative facts and fake news, you know, let the record speak for itself. The record tells the story. And we are here to provide access to that record. And we're really proud of doing that every day.
MATT PORTER: How much time went into preparing these documents to be opened, and how many staff hours and staff numbers did it take to get this to the point where they're ready to be opened?
KAREN ABRAMSON: That's a very good question. There were a number of people who helped in this project. So I don't want to leave anybody out. Usually, these large scale projects are definitely a collaborative effort.
The people who really led the project was Christina Fitzpatrick, who single-handedly processed 857 boxes from the documented records from the papers of Senator Kennedy. And she did so in about 2 and 1/2 years, which is pretty remarkable when you think about how much material she actually got through. One technique that she used in order to get through the material as quickly as she could-- because she was eager to make it available-- was to provide access-- we've provided access, and we've documented that these materials are available.
But some of them, because they contain confidential information such as constituent mail, will be reviewed on demand. But, in the meantime, we've made the materials available people can see that we have them. And they can request them on demand, which is wonderful.
In terms of the audio recordings that were digitized and cataloged, Bill Bjelf led the way in that project. There were various other staff members who played an integral role in helping him with that. Jim Hill, and Maryrose Grossman, and others to name just a couple. But Bill, basically, oversaw the digitization, and then cataloging of 1900 individual segments from the radio program Face Off. Two minute debates between Senator Kennedy and two leading Republican senators of the time, between 1986 and 1993.
MATT PORTER: Wow. Great work. Well, thank you to your team, Karen. You guys have done a really great work here.
KAREN ABRAMSON: Thank you, Matt. It's an important opening. And we're really glad to have it discussed.
MATT PORTER: The EMK collection, as it's known here, includes more than just documents and photos. In a radio program called Face Off, Senator Kennedy debated senators from across the aisle. It was a program he would regularly do for more than seven years. I sat down with one of the senators who Kennedy debated to talk about what it was like on the show.
TED KENNEDY: This is Ted Kennedy. Whenever illegal aliens--
MATT PORTER: From 1986 to 1993, Senator Ted Kennedy used the power of radio to bring both sides together for short, lively debates on everything from immigration to gun control to global warming.
TED KENNEDY: --Kennedy. The White House is out of step on the issue of global warming.
MATT PORTER: The more than 1900 recordings-- now online-- are a lasting legacy from a time when Republicans and Democrats made a point to sit down and deliver honest debates on the issues. The idea of the show came from Senator Kennedy. And during its seven year run, he found two of his Republican colleagues-- who also happened to be his friends-- step up to debate. One of those senators was Alan Simpson from Wyoming.
ALAN SIMPSON: Then, they asked Ted, do you like doin' it? And he said, yeah, well, who would you like to do it with? He said, I think Simpson.
I think the two of us would enjoy it. We try to keep it light, not too heavy, and beat the crap out of each other. And so that was it.
MATT PORTER: The shows were structured in a point-counterpoint format, where each senator would have a minute to debate the other on a single issue. Simpson said while the shows would sometimes get heated, they were always respectful.
ALAN SIMPSON: Sometimes, you know, we'd see each other on the floor, you know, every day, and Ted, one day said, Jesus, you really stuck it to me. Well, I said, you'll get your chance tomorrow. You can stick it to me. No, he said, no, I thought that was harsh. And I said, well, I'm sorry.
And then, there were times when I would say, you know, Ted, you said that in humor, but, by God, that pissed me off. And that's the way we dealt with each other. And that's why it was a great pleasure to do it.
MATT PORTER: Both men-- such as in this recording about amnesty for undocumented immigrants-- relish finding a clever turn of phrase to out debate their colleague from across the aisle.
TED KENNEDY: But when we tried to do the right thing and extend the amnesty to wives and children you said no and block this humanitarian reform. When you go through the airports, Al, does your heart set off the metal detector?
ALAN SIMPSON: No, but I sometimes think your noggin was chiseled out of some of that New England granite, Ted.
MATT PORTER: Simpson says he and Senator Kennedy both appreciated the role humor can play in a debate.
ALAN SIMPSON: Well, we always tried to inject humor in it, because Ted had a great sense of humor. Ted introduced me at this function. He said, I want to tell you this is really embarrassing to introduce Simpson, because what he has done in Wyoming is traffic on his family name.
The name Simpson. His father was a governor, and United States senator. How could a man of any rectitude ever traffic on their name.
Well, of course, it brought down the house, because of his name. And he knew exactly what he was doing. So that's kind of the stuff we did. And we had a lot of fun doing it.
MATT PORTER: Simpson laments that a program like Face Off may not be possible in today's political climate.
ALAN SIMPSON: These people in the Senate now don't have time to do anything, but raise money and see how to screw the other side. I mean, if that's what the government has now devolved into, which is very simple as I view it from my high priest posts as a guy who loved the Senate, loved work with the other side, enjoyed so much workin' with Kennedy, or whoever, [INAUDIBLE], it didn't matter what party they were in. This is pathetic.
It's childish. It's like little kiddies in a sandbox. It's disgusting to the American people.
Winning is a wonderful trait in anything, in any form, including legislation. But, nowadays, they want to they don't want to win. They want to rub the other guy's nose in it. And it is absolutely unattractive.
MATT PORTER: Sitting at his home in Wyoming, looking at some of his past gifts from Senator Kennedy, Simpson says the face offs were just part of their long friendship in the Senate.
ALAN SIMPSON: There is one picture here. Ted is-- I'm looking at it right now-- Ted is at the microphone. It's a press conference. We had just agreed on something. And I'm standing behind him with my fist doubled up, because I said if you're going to go off on that shit, I'm going to punch you.
Well, he's got a half smile on his face. And I'm laughing. And he's starting to laugh. It says on the bottom, to my pal Al Simpson from your black and blue punching bag.
MATT PORTER: Simpson says his friendship with Senator Kennedy was honest and true, and only hopes future senators can come to learn how to develop the same relationships across the aisle.
ALAN SIMPSON: There was never a point where either one of us came to mistrust the other one. And code of the Senate was trust. That was the coin of the realm.
This is Al Simpson. Ted Kennedy and I will face off next on the need to get a line on federal spending. Join us tomorrow on the Mutual Broadcasting System.
MATT PORTER: Well, if you want to hear more Face Off recordings, you can check out JFKlibrary.org/faceoff. Also check out a couple of my favorite non-political, more lighthearted Face Offs, including a blooper reel on our podcast page for this episode. And joining me now is Barbara Souliotis, a former staff member for Senator Kennedy. Barbara served the senator for his entire 40 plus year career. Barbara, thanks for joining me today.
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: I'm glad to be here.
MATT PORTER: Barbara, you were with Senator Kennedy since he started his senate career. What was your first impression of him when you started working for him?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Well, he was very young. He was at that time in the Boston office, gearing up for the Senate campaign, traveling around the state for the Cancer Fund. And he had a great sense of humor. Loved going out and campaigning, and meeting the people across Massachusetts.
MATT PORTER: When Senator Kennedy took office, and you went to Washington, how important were the constituents-- constituent mail, and answering constituent questions to Senator Kennedy? You know, obviously, this release of documents that we now have includes a lot of that mail-- thousands and thousands of letters. So how important was that for Senator Kennedy, and did he get to answer a lot of those pieces of mail?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: It was very important to Senator Kennedy. He wanted every single piece of mail answered and answered as quickly as possible. And read a lot of it, wanted it responded to as quickly as possible. Originally, a lot of the mail went to his Washington office. But after that, the constituent mail was handled out of the Boston office, which was requests from all constituents seeking help with federal agencies.
MATT PORTER: Yeah, so what were a lot of the requests that the senator got?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Well, mainly, it was a requests with social security. People seeking social security disability, veterans, military, very heavy volume on immigration. People in Massachusetts trying to get members of their family into this country. Adoptions. A request with every federal agency.
MATT PORTER: What was Senator Kennedy's schedule like? I imagine not a lot of free time on that schedule. How was that task?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: There was never any free time. If you're talking about the campaign, the first campaign we usually started at 6:00 AM-- he did-- at factory gates, people going into work. And usually ended up at 9:00 or 10:00 at night.
MATT PORTER: So, clearly, late into the evening working in the office in Washington.
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: This was in Boston, during--
MATT PORTER: Oh, in Boston.
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: --the campaign.
MATT PORTER: This was during the campaign. And then, did that continue? Did that tireless [INAUDIBLE] continue into the Washington years?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Yes, absolutely. He was usually in the office by 8:00. And depending on the votes in the Senate, it could go to 6:00. It could go, if there were late votes, it could go late into the evening. And then, obviously, there were different events at night that he had to attend in Washington also.
MATT PORTER: So in this collection that we released, one of the pieces of mail that was highlighted by our archivists was this nice letter to Martin Luther King Junior, particularly about the work he was doing in the south, the protests and the nonviolent civil actions going on. Do you remember how Senator Kennedy approached the Civil Rights period? Obviously, was taking office during a time where it was in the news. It was in the front pages. What do you remember of Senator Kennedy's approach to that era?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Well, he was always extremely involved in the Civil Rights, meeting with the leaders of the black community and working with, obviously, with his brother, the attorney general, doing whatever he could legislatively to help them.
MATT PORTER: We have that letter where he said he went down and visited Mississippi. We also have this picture where he went to Vietnam, also another major issue going on in the early period of his career. How important was it for Senator Kennedy to go to these places, to not just be in Washington, but to go to Mississippi, or to go to Alabama, Birmingham, Selma, or also to go to Vietnam, and see what things were like on the ground?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Always, always wanted to go. Even after Senator Robert Kennedy passed away. Robert was very involved in Indian Affairs, as everybody knows, and he immediately took over and scheduled hearings in California, Arizona, and New Mexico to see that the poverty and the suicide rate among the American Indians. And took up that cause. Always wanted to go and hear from the people.
MATT PORTER: Right, which is why we saw Cesar Chavez and Martin Luther King and others thanking him for going to those places. In his early career-- particularly since these documents focus on that-- would you say there was a learning curve? Or what major events do you think in that time may have shaped the senator as he eventually evolved into one of the most influential progressives in the Senate?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Well, whenever he was in the state, he always, when we schedule a day in the state, we always tried to get him to high schools and colleges to hear from the people. And he thought that the young people were very much responsible for ending the Vietnam War. And very supportive of them during that time. As I said, he always just wanted to hear what was on their minds, and the thought that if they could serve in the military they should have the right to vote.
MATT PORTER: I'm sure Senator Kennedy's time was constantly asked for. How much did Senator Kennedy try to make sure that, not just maybe lobbyists or people who have a lot of influence, but when people who wanted to speak to him who were not-- you know, who were just regular voters from the state or other people, did he try to make sure that there was time for those people as well?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Whenever we scheduled a day in Springfield, or the Berkshires, or the North Shore, or the South Shore, we always try to have time to meet with the individual people, who might want to speak to him about a particular problem.
Always took a Q&A at the high schools and colleges. Whenever there was a recess in the Senate or whenever-- at that time usually no votes on Fridays, he would call me and say I'm coming up. Schedule me around the state.
MATT PORTER: And what about-- this is something that maybe now is more difficult to imagine-- but Senator Kennedy was not just a friend of people on his own side, but was known for reaching across the aisle. We had the Face Off programs-- which people heard earlier-- where he had these radio moments with Senator Dole, Senator Simpson. How important, also, was it for Senator Kennedy, and what did he do to make sure that he wasn't just talking to the people who agreed with him?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Well, when he first went down, I mean, he went to meet all of the leaders of the Senate, Republican and Democrat. They paid a courtesy call. Always knew that he had to compromise to get things done.
He may not always get everything he wanted, but he would get what he could. And bring it back later and try to get the rest of it. I think it was a very different time at that time, when the senators stayed in Washington longer, during the week, had children, met socially at that kid's football games. And I don't think you see that much anymore.
MATT PORTER: Certainly could be something we could all see more of. One other letter that I want to mention, because it was interesting. It was by Dr. Benjamin Spock. He is the man who, obviously, wrote the book on parenting and raising children.
He wrote to Senator Kennedy talking about embracing sort of activism. And that the younger generation-- and this is the 60s and 70s, you know, where you have a lot of protests a lot of activism. Do you find thinking about Senator Kennedy's time, where was the 60s and the 70s, and sort of what we're seeing a little bit today with similar types of activism happening-- does that seem familiar at all?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. I think during that time it was the Vietnam War. I think today you see the kids with gun control, and the shootings at the schools that they became very active in trying to pass stricter gun control laws.
MATT PORTER: And Senator Kennedy, during that time in Vietnam, was he out there speaking to the protesters? And what was his perspective on all those young people gathering in the streets and holding signs or holding protests, boycotts at that period?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Well, he always, I mean, he always thought that they had the right to do that. He wasn't for any violence, obviously. But he would hold hearings and bring people to testify about that. And on the mall when Senator Kerry came back from Vietnam protesting the war, he was down there.
MATT PORTER: What do you think from your long term experience seeing him through his entire career, what do you think made Senator Kennedy such, not only such a good politician, but such an effective one?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: One thing is that he always listened to what people's opinion, and wanted to learn whenever he could. He always had a top notch staff that he would listen to. He always had an open door. He may not always agree with what you said, but he always wanted to hear it.
MATT PORTER: And my last question-- just, obviously, thousands of documents being digitized being open to the public-- how do you feel knowing that Senator Kennedy's words to everyone from Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King Junior, all the way down to just the voters in his state that now researchers and historians can comb through this and tell more stories about Senator Kennedy and his legacy? How do you feel that that's now available online?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Oh, I think it's terrific. I think there are a lot of people have no idea how much he did, particularly we can talk about 9/11, and how he stayed in touch with every Massachusetts person who may have lost somebody on the plane. He stayed in touch over a period of a couple of years.
He brought all of the federal agencies into Boston to meet with the families to help them with whatever benefits they're entitled to. Got the Mass. Bar Association to help them pro bono. And I think a lot of people don't really know the many things that he has done like that.
MATT PORTER: The difference between Senator Kennedy, the young man that you started with, and the senator that you ended his career with, what were the differences? What do you think he evolved into over the years? What was he like as a young man, do you remember? And then, how did he change or did he stay the same?
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: I think he stayed the same. But he, obviously, he certainly knew, I think, everything any senator could possibly know about the rules of the Senate. And how to get things done. And I think that evolves with seniority, with committee assignments.
Always had his great sense of humor, which the other members of the Senate on both sides of the aisle always appreciated. Whenever he gave his word that was it, and everybody knew that. That's why people respected him so much I think.
MATT PORTER: Barbara, thank you so much. Thanks for coming to the JFK library. We appreciate your time and we hope that researchers will continue to use and learn more about the senator now that they are available. Thank you very much.
BARBARA SOULIOTIS: Thank you.
MATT PORTER: Well, thank you for listening to our latest podcast as we took a closer look at our Edward M. Kennedy collection. Stay with us next time as we bring you more stories from the JFK library. If you have questions or story ideas, email us at JFK35pod@JFKLFoundation.org or tweet at us at JFK Library using the hashtag JFK35. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
And if you like what you heard today, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving us review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. And have a great week.